It’s the first installment of our friendship mailbag!
A quick note from us: When we recorded this episode, Israel was five days into its violent offensive on Gaza. Since then Israel’s aggression has only escalated, killing as of this writing, more than 200 hundred Palestinians. Hamas rockets have killed about 10 Israelis. Please check out the resources below and join us in supporting human rights for Palestinians, an end to the occupation, and a free Palestine.
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In this episode, we answer your questions about friendship. We talk about how to deal when you don’t like your friend’s partner, how and when to have courageous conversations, and dealing with unwanted vaccination advice from friends. We weren’t able to get to all of the awesome questions we got, so we will definitely be recording a second installment!
This episode was produced by Rachel and Sally and edited by Lucas Nguyen. Our logo was designed by Amber Seger (@rocketorca). Our theme music is by Tiny Music. MJ Brodie transcribed this episode. Follow us on Twitter @OhILikeThatPod.
Things we talked about:
Rachel: Welcome to Oh I Like That, a podcast about things we like and occasionally things we don't. I'm Rachel Wilkerson Miller.
Sally: And I'm Sally Tamarkin. It's Friday the father, Rachel.
Rachel: It is. We've made it, we're here. How's it going?
Sally: You know, it's going all right. It's been quite a week this week. I will say that geopolitically speaking, the vibe is, there's just a lot of rough things going on right now. So I've been definitely feeling kind of angry and sad all week, speaking of what is happening right now and to Palestinians. There's also, India is going through a really intense COVID situation. People in Colombia are experiencing intense governmental repression as they try to protest. And yeah, it's a weird thing because I feel like here in Philadelphia, United States, the weather has been nice, people are getting vaccinated, and there's this sort of sense of, things are finally good again. But so many people in other parts of the world -- and also here in the United States, but you know, in terms of headlines, things are really rough in other places. And I just thought, I would say a couple of quick things about what's happening in Israel and Palestine, just because I think it's important, especially for American Jews like myself to -- white American Jews in particular -- to just acknowledge that what Israel has been doing to Palestinians for more than seventy years is the kind of thing that a lot of us hate when it happens here and in other places, which is to say terrorism and apartheid and supremacist violence and repression at the hands of the state. And I think that we're finally starting to see more people speak out about this and speak out about solidarity with Palestinians and say the words "Free Palestine" and believe it in a real way. And we don't talk a ton about politics on this podcast, but, you know, this is an important human rights thing. And I just, I wanted to say that that's where I'm at. And I wanted to also mention that we'll put some links in show notes to anyone who wants to learn a little bit more about what's going on. We'll link to the US Campaign on Palestinian Rights, B'Tselem Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, the Adalah Justice Project. And then also Democracy Now's landing page for Israel and Palestine news. Because all those are really helpful resources. So yeah, I just wanted to put that out there.
Rachel: Great. I think that I appreciate that. I know a lot of people listening will appreciate that as well.
Sally: Okay. So let's move into our main segment for this episode, which is the listener questions we got about friendships.
Rachel: Yeah, I'm super excited for this. We got so many good questions and we had a great time going through all of them, choosing which ones to read. We aren't going to have time to read all of them, but we may actually save the rest for a second episode in a month or so, just because they were great. And a lot of them were evergreen and we'd love to talk about them.
Sally: So I'm going to read our very first question here. So this is from someone who wants to remain anonymous and her pronouns are she/her. I'm going to read their email, but then I'm also going to read the follow up because we had a follow up question for them. Okay.
Rachel: Cool.
Sally: "I have a very close friend that I met through work. I have spent time with his wife and I simply do not like her. We don't get along all that well, and it's impossible to stomach her political leanings. She is not a Trump supporter, but Republican in every other way, including working for a Republican governor. My friend started to wonder why communications with her have dropped off, and he pressed me to explain. So I gently explained that I have a tough time fostering a very close friendship with her due to a few reasons, including her political affiliation. For what it's worth, I would have never said all of this i he did not repeatedly ask me. It felt, and still feels, like he wants me to be good friends with her when I was fine just being acquaintances. It's been several months since that conversation about his wife and he has cut off our friendship. I guess in retrospect I understand, I wouldn't want to be close with someone who disliked my husband, but it's been difficult. I reached out at one point expressing my sadness and confusion, and he said to trust him and that he would be in touch, but it's been two months since I've heard from him when before we talked almost every day. So I guess my questions for you both are: one, is there any salvaging this friendship, and two: for future situations, is it possible to be good friends with someone when you dislike their significant other?" So just really quickly, we wrote back and asked a little bit more about the friend's political affiliations, because that seemed relevant. And this is what she said: "He has a unique and often frustrating mix of beliefs. He is a big Bernie Sanders supporter, strongly anti-establishment, and very critical of the Democratic party and Joe Biden for not leaning left enough, but his entire family are very Republican Trump supporters. So I think he sits in that space where he is so leftist that sometimes he circles back around to being on the right side of the spectrum. He is not shy about criticizing my political views -- I was a big Warren supporter -- and we've discussed it all endlessly. I have no idea how much he talks about this with his wife, who told me she would never support Bernie Sanders or Elizabeth Warren. Probably the area where we disagree the most is COVID. He is not a skeptic exactly, but more of a nihilist. I think you covered this mentality in one of your COVID episodes where people think that because the government did not adequately address and regulate the dangers of COVID for people who can't afford to stay home, he takes the attitude that certain safety precautions are actually very detrimental and shouldn't be followed. One example I always think about: he said that bars closing in our city during Halloween would quote-unquote 'kill people' because they'll end up going to house parties instead. Actually one of the rifts that has come up is their attitude towards COVID. They had a small gathering that I attended about six weeks after I gave birth to my first child and was going a little stir crazy. I stayed outside for the hour I was there, but his wife experienced COVID symptoms shortly after that gathering and refused to take a test. Although my friend told me he wished that she took a test, it's unclear if he ever pushed her to take one. Side note, your episode about breaking up with friends re: COVID really helped me find peace about why maybe this friendship was never meant to last. Hopefully that's helpful. It definitely contributes to why this is also confusing and difficult for me."
Rachel: All right. So let's just reiterate, her specific questions were: is there any salvaging this friendship? And for future situations, is it possible to be good friends with someone when you dislike their significant other? So let's start with, is there any salvaging this friendship? What's your initial gut reaction, Sally?
Sally: Okay. My gut reaction is to ask, do you definitely want to salvage this friendship?
Rachel: Right.
Sally: You know?
Rachel: My-- yeah.
Sally: Because my bias -- and it's easy for me to say, because this isn't a good friend of mine that I talk to every day. So it's easier for me to be like, you know, this person sounds pretty hard to deal with in terms of like, I really know the exact person you're talking about. [Laughs]
Rachel: Oh my god. The follow up is so illuminating. And I think we both have just such a clear picture of who this person is in our minds.
Sally: Yeah. The Bernie Sanders supporter who's so leftist that they end up on the right is really just, yeah. It's just a very... you provided a crystal clear picture of who this person is. And between that and the COVID stuff, and you know, I think that the thing about being friends with someone when you don't like their partner, which we're not getting into yet, so I won't go there. But one thing I will say that I think is relevant here is that sometimes it makes you, it's not just about not liking the partner. It's like, how could I be friends with someone who would be married to a person who believes these things? And I think, you know, as someone who doesn't have a connection to this person, I guess I would invite you to reflect on whether or not you really do want to salvage this relationship. What do you think, Rachel?
Rachel: I think that is extremely true. I think the answer is that there's not really any salvaging this friendship for multiple reasons. In part because of how he handled this, and then also because of his political views. So I think just starting with the whole premise that he wondered why you hadn't been communicating with his wife as much and so he reached out to you about it. Like, if you and his wife were friends on your own at this point enough that communication with her personally could drop off, then it's really her responsibility to reach out and ask what's going on. If he wants you to have a friendship with her separately, she should be doing that. I'm also not totally sure why he's so eager for you to have a friendship with his wife separately from him. I think it's totally fine if you two are friends and you're polite to his wife and you see her, you know, fairly regularly if you're seeing him, and you guys have double dates and things like that. But I also don't think you need to be friends. You don't need to have a friendship with her on your own. And I'm curious what led him to kind of push for that. Does his wife want to make friends? Does his wife really like you? I'm not really clear. You know, if you have such opposing political views, I don't necessarily think she necessarily would want to be great friends with you either. So there's some kind of weird thing happening there where he is a little too invested in you being friends with his wife. It doesn't totally make sense to me. And then there's also the fact that when you were honest with him, which it sounds like you did the right thing, he was pushing you to give him an answer and you didn't bullshit, you gave him an honest answer. He didn't like it. Again, he's speaking on behalf of his wife, which is a little odd. Now he's bullshitting you by saying, "Everything's fine, I just, you know, have been busy," or something. He's making kind of an excuse. But when you're talking to somebody every day, and then you don't hear from them for two months, that's telling you a lot. So I think that for whatever reason, he didn't like what you had to say. My personal belief is that, you know, when you say to somebody, "This person that you like or care about has qualities that I don't like," it makes that person... it forces that person who's the in-between to reflect on their own views. And it feels like a criticism of them to some degree, because you're saying, "I can't be friends with this person because of their values." So I think he's probably in the position of, "Well, what does that say about me?" He's obviously comfortable with her beliefs. And I was going to say that even before we got this followup, but based on the fact that he's married to somebody working for a Republican governor, I'm not totally convinced he is so leftist. I am like, is he Libertarian? Is he, like, what's the deal here? Particularly when you said he's a nihilist, that to me is somebody who is not so leftist as he might want you to think. And so I think regardless of whether he, you know, shares her views or not, he shares enough of them to be okay with them, because it doesn't sound like he was saying to you, "Yeah, I totally agree with you. I don't like this about her either. I'm struggling with this as well." So I think it put him in the weird position of having to figure out his own views and the truth is he's probably more like her than maybe he was letting on before. And so now he's realizing, yeah, this isn't gonna work out. Sally, what do you think?
Sally: Yeah. I mean, I think you said all of that beautifully, and that was all insightful and I agree with all of it. I would just say that, you know, I think that being a nihilist is not compatible with truly being a progressive and caring about social justice and, you know, I understand having waves of nihilism because I think that is kind of what happens when you care about things a lot and things are really hard all the time. But for that to be your default approach to life or the pandemic or whatever... I personally cannot be friends with people who are not progressive and what you're describing is just not someone who's progressive. And so, you know, I think for that reason alone -- and I'm projecting onto you here, Anonymous -- for that reason alone, I would be really thinking hard about whether or not I wanted to salvage the friendship. And I think the question "Can this be salvaged?" I mean, I guess I already said this, that I think it's a different question. Because I think that almost any relationship can be salvaged, but the question is, should it be?
Rachel: Right.
Sally: Do you want to do the work to salvage it? Because you know, you have put in a fair amount of work already. I think it's like, you know, he sort of pulled out of you your true feelings and you did something that I think is hard to do, which is, you were honest with your friend about how you can't really connect with his partner, and you've checked in with him when he kind of ghosted you. And I think that salvaging this friendship is going to require a lot more work on your part because it doesn't seem like he's really here for that work. So I guess, is there any salvaging this friendship? I think probably, but you know, I just think that we need to normalize -- I hate when people, this is the worst social media meme, is 'normalize' whatever -- but we do need to normalize people not salvaging relationships, I think.
Rachel: I agree. And I think that the work required to salvage this, I don't think it would be the work of having more conversations. I think to some degree it would be the work of forgetting what you know. You would have to forget the things about her that you know, the things about him that you know, and I don't think that's a good kind of work. I don't think that's worthy of your effort. There is a difference between reflecting and saying, "Oh, for this to work, I need to change some things about myself that I actually am realizing I should change." I'm not sure that that's what's going on here. I don't think that you should abandon your values because this other person wants you to. And I think that that kind of work is probably not the best use of your time. And I agree that some friendships aren't built to last and that's okay, and it's sad and I think you can be sad about it, that makes total sense. But I'm also just kind of thinking, I'm not sure what there is to save here. And I trust that there's more to this person and to this friendship than you've put in your letter just for the sake of brevity, but I also do think, you know, I think you know the answer here.
Sally: Mm. Yeah.
Rachel: I also want to say that his wife is a COVID denier. Like, she had COVID symptoms and refused to get a COVID test. She's not just a Republican, she is a COVID denier. And he is married to a COVID denier and is like, "ell, what can you do when she's denying the COVID? I wish she'd take a test, but she won't!" I'm like, do you... what? You live with somebody who has COVID symptoms and you wish she'd take a test? Did he take a test? When you are in a partnership with somebody, you can say, "You're getting a test." Obviously we're adults and we have autonomy to some degree, but I'm not sure he really did more than just simply wish she would. And he's just okay with the fact that she won't, which is sort of an indefensible thing. That is just, there's no real excuse for that. You know, there's a difference between can't get a test, can't get the time off work to go get tested, all those sorts of things, and just "I simply don't want to." That is COVID denialism. That is who he's married to. And that is what he's okay with. And I just don't know how you come back from that.
Sally: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I think also saying "I wish she would take a test" is so different than saying, "I'm so angry and heartbroken because I can't get my partner to understand how important this is. And I'm rethinking our whole relationship."
Rachel: Right.
Sally: You know, I think certainly there are plenty of relationships that have ended, romantic or otherwise, because of the way one person is behaving about COVID and that's because one of the people wasn't just like, "I wish they wouldn't be that way!" It's because one of the people was like, "I can't be in a relationship with someone who's like this." So I agree. I think that that's really instructive, Rachel. And actually this is a good segue, I think, into the second question, which is like, is it possible to be good friends with someone when you dislike their significant other? Because I think that a lot of times people just kind of defacto take on the kind of beliefs and values of the people they're married to, or with, or dating or hanging out with, because if you're willing to put up with certain kinds of behavior, then that says something about, you know, you. So Rachel, what are your initial thoughts about the whole being good friends with someone when you dislike their significant other?
Rachel: I think it's very difficult to be good friends with someone when you [dis]like their significant other, assuming it's a pretty significant relationship. I think if you're a little younger and the relationship is maybe not as serious, and so they don't necessarily live together or spend all their time together, there's a world in which you won't have to deal with this person that much, or the friend doesn't talk about the person as much as they might if it's their actual spouse. But I think there comes a point where in both the goodness of the friendship and then the seriousness of the relationship that both those things increase. I do think you have to like the significant other -- or not dislike the significant other let's say, because you're going to have to interact with that person. It's going to be really difficult to avoid them. And even if you don't have to interact with them directly, it's very likely that their name will come up in conversations, the friend will share things about the things the significant other has done, and you're going to have to react to it. And at a certain point, I think it's going to be too difficult to just sit there and pretend you're okay with what you're hearing about the person or how they treat your friend or whatever the case may be. So I don't think it's impossible, but I do think it's very difficult. And it does sort of raise the question again of, what's going on with your friend? What does your friend see in this person, and how does that square with your own values? Because there's clearly a mismatch here. And so, you know, I also want to say that there's a difference between a friend who is with somebody who is pretty clearly abusive and trying to alienate them from the people around them. That's a totally different thing that I think we're talking about something else here, which is just like, I don't vibe with this person, their politics, their behavior, the way they generally are in the world. And yeah, at a certain point, I think it can really wear a friendship down or make it so you can still be friendly and maybe do things here and there together. But I think your friendship is ultimately going to have fences around it that you just can't get past. You're not going to be able to get to that bigger, deeper place because you're kind of boxed in by this limitation.
Sally: I think that's a really good way of putting it, the fences around the friendship. I think that also, if you don't like a friend's partner, because they're, I don't know, they talk about themselves a lot, or they're really loud in public, or they have... I don't know. If they annoy you, but you know, you have a friendship with this person where you don't really hang out with their partner a lot or when you do, it's not that often, that to me I think is workable.
Rachel: Totally.
Sally: I think there are fences there, but you know, that's very different than having a friend whose partner is a COVID denying Republican. For me, that's going to be a deal breaker, because I'm not willing to see that person every once in a while. But I've certainly had friendships where I'm primarily friends with, you know, my friend and we don't hang out as couples. And if we do, it's only once in a while. And maybe I find them kind of annoying and they probably find me kind of annoying, but you know, we make it work because the friendship means a lot to us. But I think that when the reason you dislike them is something that kind of goes against something that's a very strong value of yours or something that you feel is just not right. I think in that case, again, it's like, is it possible to be good friends with someone? Yeah, I guess, but you are going to have those fences and you're going to have those. I think it's also really hard to enjoy a friendship with someone when they're married to some-- or when, I keep saying married, when they're with someone whose values you find bad or despicable or shitty or whatever, because I think it's really hard to not just sit there and quietly seethe and be like, how can this person I love be with someone who is so awful, you know?
Rachel: I agree. And I also think it requires a lot of holding your tongue and not saying anything. And I just don't think that is a good basis for a friendship. Friendships require authenticity, and if you can't be honest with the person, both when they're talking about their partner and you're hearing and you're like, "What the hell?" Or if you want to talk about your own values or your own experiences. And if you're saying "Oh my God, you know, I'm having all this conflict with somebody in this Facebook group that I'm in, because they're..." and then you go on to describe behavior that's exactly what your friend's partner does. They're going to feel weird about that, most likely. They're going to realize, they're going to connect the dots. And so I think it just becomes really difficult when you have a friendship that has all of these little things you can't touch, that you have to avoid, that you're constantly trying to twist yourself around to not say anything about their partner or even reminiscent of their partner. Again, that's not an authentic friendship. You can't be your full self around them. So I don't see how that can really work in the long run.
Sally: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Man, it's a tough situation for sure.
Rachel: I think this is actually a great way to get into our next question, which is all about having courageous conversations when you disagree with someone.
Sally: Okay. So this person also wanted to remain anonymous and their pronouns are she/they. "Dear Sally and Rachel, on episode 14 you talked about breaking up with friends in the post-COVID summer, but really, are we post-COVID yet? Or will we ever be? Sally mentioned having courageous conversations with friends who did risky/not recommended activities during the worst of the pandemic or otherwise exhibited poor judgment. I'm wondering what those conversations could look like. Can you provide some more details about elements of a courageous conversation or even a basic script for newbies? For context, my family has been really affected by the pandemic. My partner works in healthcare in a setting without sufficient PPE for much of the year. We have a young child who we took out of daycare early in the pandemic to keep him safe. We know a few people who have died. Meanwhile, some friends we used to like and trust made some interesting decisions this past year pre-vaccination, such as traveling for fun on an airplane, continuing to exercise at the gym, getting haircuts at a salon, eating out at restaurants, et cetera. Additional context: we live in a Midwestern city that did not shut down completely for long. I questioned their judgment and don't feel inclined to hang out with them soon. Not sure if I have it in me to have a conversation with them about their choices. TBH, not really ready to start socializing much in general with anybody. I feel like it will take a while to get comfortable with the idea of doing things again." What do you think?
Rachel: I think the question of whether or not you have to have a conversation with them kind of depends on the level of friendship and whether or not they're trying to hang out with you again. You know, you might be fine to just not pick up the conversation of "Let's get together soon," or if you're getting group invites, you might be fine to just decline here and there. Particularly if it wasn't a really close friend, if it was just an acquaintance, I don't think you have to have these intense conversations with everyone you've ever met. Friendships drop off. I don't think you should ghost people necessarily, but I think you can kind of use good judgment about whether... like, there's people who, if they tried to have a sit down with me about something, I'd be like, "We see each other once a year. It's fine." You know? So I think you can start from there. Don't let yourself off the hook, and I think it is important to take responsibility for having these conversations. But I also don't think you have to have one with everyone you know over every decision -- I was going to say every decision even small ones, but even small ones count in the big picture, but I think it's more about the relationships. So I would start there and think about who are the people who I was closest with before and who had expressed interest in hanging out. Those are the people, if you're going to have a conversation, I think those are the people to have it with. What do you think, Sally?
Sally: Yeah, I totally agree. I think that courageous conversations are something that you can use and engage in when it's important for you to feel like, you know, you need to communicate something to someone who either you care about or to someone who you want to know what you're thinking and feeling, but they're by no means a thing that you have to do every time someone in your life does a thing that you don't like. And I think also, I think the other variable here is, which of these people are going to be amenable to having this kind of a conversation? Because I think that, you know, I have people in my life who are like... I don't really think anyone I know did stuff on a scale that you're talking about, but I do have people in my life who were like, "Man, I feel really bad that we're doing this, but I'm going to do it." Or "I have questions about whether or not it's okay for me to do this, but I'm going to do it." In other words, they have some sort of feeling of being conflicted or knowing on some level that they shouldn't be doing it morally. [Laughs] And I think that's really different than people who are like, "This isn't a big deal. If I get COVID, I'll be fine," or "COVID's not real," or whatever the thing is. I don't know that I would, if I was sort of thinking about the fact that my energy is finite, I would think pretty long and hard about who I want to expend energy on to have courageous conversations, because I think they're hard to have, you know? I think they're hard to have and they're hard to start. So I think, you know, if you have someone who you feel really close to and you would feel really sad if the friendship changed, or if you would feel sad if they didn't know how you felt about their behavior or whatever. I think it's, you know, yeah. Those are situations in which I think it makes a lot of sense to have a courageous conversation. If that's your thing. I think there are a lot of people who are like, you know, that's just not a thing I do. I just keep it moving. I don't want to inflict my strong belief and courageous conversations on other people. But I do think that if you're interested in sort of unpacking some of this stuff, and I think it's also having a courageous conversation with a friend is also I think an act of generosity and an expression of believing in them and in that they care for you and that they can hear what you have to say and, you know, be sort of open-minded and generous about how they react. I think that they can be hard, but they end up also being like, I think can be very beautiful acts of connection and generosity. And so if you're thinking about having a conversation and you're thinking, this person is just going to experience it as a criticism or a fight, or it's going to turn into something ugly and nasty, you know, maybe that's not the person to have it with. But if you think to yourself, this person cares about me and this person cares about what I think, and I want to give them the opportunity to see me and hear me, then I think that's a different frame that kind of can help you decide if you want to have those conversations.
Rachel: I think also if they directly ask you, if they've been trying to hang out with you and you keep putting them off, and they're just like, "What's going on, is everything good? Did I do something?" I think you do have to tell them the truth. I don't think you should bullshit people who actually truly ask you, you know, what's going on. And I think sometimes people ask in a really sort of backhanded or passive aggressive way where they'll make kind of a snide comment or something like that. That's not great. But I do think once they kind of throw it out there, it's in your court now, pick it up, you can do something with it. I also don't think that you only have to have these conversations with people who you're interested in continuing a friendship with. I think that if they're asking and you know you're too upset with them, you've totally changed how you feel about them and there's no coming back from this, I think you can still be honest with them and you can still be kind to them, but you can say, "Because of this, I just don't really feel like we have much in common, or I don't think we share the same values." And you can use this as an opportunity to end the friendship in a more formal way if that's what you're feeling. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. So I still believe it's an act of generosity and caring to not leave things hanging and to give them the opportunity to think about what they did and maybe change how they act going forward. You don't necessarily have to be around for it, but it is still a kindness if somebody is asking you to tell them what's going on. In terms of the script, I think it's easiest when somebody is inviting you to hang out versus kind of just dropping it out of nowhere. So I think that you can say something like, "You know, I want to be honest with you that I was really surprised to see that you, you know, flew on a plane to Mexico last December when that was so widely being discouraged. As somebody who has family members who work in healthcare and who lost loved ones, and who had a really rough year, I was really shocked and to be honest upset to see that, because, you know, I think of you as somebody who does care about other people and who does know better. And so seeing that made me really question if we have the same values in common." And then I think at that point, you don't have to say anything more. You can just say that much and see what they say. Will they share something with you that you didn't know? Probably not, but maybe. I think it's always good to have that space for them to say, you know, maybe there is something that you missed out on or whatever. But give them a chance to just respond without even asking them a direct question, or you don't even have to say, "What do you think?" You can just say all that, leave it there and let them respond to it. And, you know, maybe they'll say, "Well, I thought you were an uptight harpy who never left the house," and you can be like, okay, I think we're done here. We don't actually have that much in common. I think if they say their piece and it kind of is like a, What do we do now?" My move would probably be to say, "You know, I really care about you, and I care about our friendship. I think I need some time apart to go back into society, to grieve for the past year, to recover from the past year, so I'm not ready to hang out yet, but I'll reach out to you when I am ready." And you might never be ready, but I think that's a good way to just kind of give yourself some more time, because I actually do think you do need to grieve the past year. You actually, I don't think, are going to be in a position to wholeheartedly be friends with somebody when you're still too angry and upset -- rightfully so -- about the loss of the past year. So maybe with more time when you've been able to enjoy the things that they've been enjoying for the past year, you won't feel that frustration or resentment or anger. So I think a request for time is always sort of a good place to start.
Sally: Yeah. I agree with you, Rachel. A request for time is always great. And, you know, I always, I don't know if this is everyone's style, this might be a little heavy-handed for some people, but I think it helps me, particularly when I'm feeling really nervous about starting a conversation, is basically just stating the topic sentence, which is, "I want to talk to you about something. I'm feeling nervous about having the conversation. I feel like it's going to be difficult, but it's really important to me that we have this conversation." You know, you can say stuff like... you know, when I've had conversations with friends where I've said things really critical of stuff they've done, and I'm worried it's going to be taken really badly, I preface it by being like, "I really love you and I care about you, and I care about our friendship, so I want to have this conversation." And you know, whether or not you say that I think depends on if it's your style to say that, who the person is, what they did, what you're talking about with them, I'm not necessarily suggesting you say it in this case. But I do think that starting with being honest about your vulnerability, if in fact you're feeling vulnerable, I think can just sort of, I don't know, maybe set the tone and also just acknowledge, you know, this is a thing that's about to happen. Which, I think that bringing up these things, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on what I'm about to say, Rachel, because I feel like there is kind of a bias towards having these kinds of conversations in person and never doing them over email or never doing them over text or anything like that. And I think that, first of all, I wonder, so many interactions now happen over email and happen over text, or even like Marco Polo, that never did before. To me, it doesn't feel... that I guess feels sort of like an outdated directive. But the other thing is that, I think that, for me, a lot of times it is better for me to be the recipient of the courageous conversation if it's being written to me, because it gives me a second to read it and sit with it and, you know, think about it and maybe talk about it with my partner or whatever it is. And, you know, so I think that if starting a conversation is easier to do in a different format, like you think it'll be easier for you or easier for the person you're talking to or both, I think that's a thing to consider, but I feel like that's not normally what people think. And Rachel, I want to know what you think about that.
Rachel: I am extremely pro conversations over text and email for all the reasons that you just described. I really think it's a gift to let somebody receive information and think about it before they respond, and for you to be able to compose yourself before you say anything. And I think the biggest thing is, use the form of communication that you two are most comfortable with. So if you text all the time and have clearly good communication skills via text, this will be fine. If you're phone call people, then maybe do it over the phone, especially if they're not the most responsive texter or say they don't like texting. I think do it in whatever forum you are the most comfortable in. But I think that, I agree it's completely outdated advice that this has to be done face-to-face or even over the phone.
Sally: That's a really good point that it should be in a forum that you are used to communicating in with the person. Good call.
Rachel: As a final thing to the letter writer, I'll just say, you ended your letter with, "I'm not really ready to start socializing much in general with anybody, and it'll take a little while to get comfortable." I think that's totally okay. I think a lot of people are feeling that way, and I think that you should ease back into it with the people that you're most excited to see. Don't start with the people whose behavior really bummed you out. Re-entry should be really special and joyful, and if you're going to be dreading seeing these people and have these, "What are we going to talk about all this?" Don't start there. Start with the people who you got closer to this year or who you really trust, and do that first, because I do think that the more time you are able to spend with people and the better you feel about things and the more distance you get between you and everything that happened last year, the easier all of this will become. And even if that means you still never go back to hanging out with those people who you're kind of writing this letter about, I think you've got to build up some distance first between what happened last year and what's happening now.
Sally: I think that's really smart. This letter is from Abby, whose pronouns are she/her. "Dear Rachel and Sally. I have a bit of an Am I The Asshole/etiquette situation, and I could really use some advice. My vaccinated friends and family are sending me a barrage of quote-unquote 'tips' on where to get vaccinated, and it's really stressing me out. I'm not yet vaccinated. I really, really want to be, but I'm not eligible just yet where I live. I have signed up for every list I can find, but nothing so far. And now it seems like every time I look at my phone, some well-meaning person has sent me something like, "My neighbor told me the site three hours away is taking walk-ins!" I have a baby and a full-time job. I am willing, of course, to go out of my way to get vaccinated, but I can't just skip work and drag myself and my baby halfway across the state on the off chance. So the boundary I've drawn is that I'm waiting to get an actual appointment or a walk-in site that's close by. I'm very anxious about not being vaccinated yet, and it feels like everyone around me already has been. And feeling like every second there's something I should be doing to chase the vaccine is sending my anxiety through the roof. So first, am I wrong to draw this line of waiting for an appointment? If I'm not wrong, how do I communicate that boundary and ask people to stop sending these messages without sounding like an anti-vaxxer? Thanks so much, love your show." And just a quick note, this is from at least a month ago, this is before it was opened up nationally to everyone. So I just want to make that clear.
Rachel: Right. So assuming that everything in this, assuming that Abby is now eligible but is still having trouble getting an appointment for whatever reason, I think the short answer to this question is no, you're not wrong to draw this line for not spending every waking minute researching this. it's totally reasonable to want this very badly, but to feel overwhelmed by the difficulty of getting an appointment, which is a very real problem. When I got my appointment, I was just like, "Oh, that's how-- they expect everyone to do this? That's not at all what I thought it was going to be." You type in your information and then you're just sent off to all these different, you've got to click through one by one. It was wild trying to find an appointment. It takes so much focus and effort. And in some places it's a lot easier than others, but it is completely reasonable to be like, "I have a lot going on in my life right now. I really want to be vaccinated, but I can't make this my top priority." And I think in terms of how to communicate that, I think most of what you said here of just, "I've signed up for everything that I can find, I have a baby and a full-time job. I really, really want to be vaccinated," is the thing that's going to keep you from sounding like you're anti-vax. You just need to tell people what you told us.
Sally: Yeah, I agree. I used to co-host an advice podcast called The Struggle Bus. And a lot of times people would say, "How can I communicate this to whoever?" And I would be like, show them this email that you wrote to us.
Rachel: Right.
Sally: Because you've articulated it so beautifully here. Which, you know, I don't actually think you need to do that, but I just mean that you are fully aware of your situation. You have insight into it, you have clarity. You are not the asshole, you are not the problem. And making that boundary is not the problem. And so I think you can say as much or as little as you want. You can say, "I absolutely cannot wait to get the vaccine. I'm waiting until I'm able to get an appointment locally. Thanks." You can also be more... this I think also kind of goes back to, how much energy do you want to put into it? Because you could also say, "Listen, I'm feeling really stressed out by the idea that I should be driving far away. You know, I have a baby, I have a full-time job. I'm so psyched you're vaccinated, but I'm feeling really stressed out by all the tips. I don't know if you realize this, but you're not the only one who's sending me tips all the time." You could go in and say all of that stuff if you want to, if it'll feel productive and/or it'll feel good to you to do it, but you don't have to. You can, you can just be like, "Please no more tips." In fact, I remember there was a moment on Twitter where I think in New York City, things had just sort of opened up a little bit and people were, any time, I was just watching people I follow say to other people, "Please stop replying to my tweets telling me where to go and what to do. I have all the resources that you do. We're paying attention to all of the same things. Please just-- I'm doing it." And I think that that's a very fine way to feel and thing to express. And I get that when you're vaccinated, you want the people you are friends with to be vaccinated because you're desperate to hang out with them. But you know, I think that everyone needs to probably just back off a little bit. And I think it's absolutely a hundred percent fine to tell people to back off.
Rachel: Totally. I think that, you know, depending on how close you are to these people and whether they also live in the same place you do, a thing that they could do if they're eager for you to get vaccinated, if they knew any of this, is "Let me know if there's anything I can do to help you. Can I babysit for your kid so that you have the time to go get your vaccine?" If it makes sense for you to hand them your information and say, "I'm not traveling more than 20 miles to get the vaccine and weekends only," and they can search for appointments for you because they've got the free time and you can't do it. That's also, to me, that's great. That's wonderful, if you're comfortable with that and they really care about this. Obviously, you're not going to do that with everyone who's bugging you about it. But if it's your sibling or something like that, that might make sense. So there may be a way for them, if they're really eager for you to do this, that they could actually be helpful. But just sending you tips is not helpful. Telling you what their coworker’s daughter-in-law did is not helpful. Like Sally said, we all have the same information for the most part. But if there is a way that they can actually be helpful, I think you should use their barrage of tips as an opening to be like, "What would be great is if you could babysit for me because I've heard there's clinics that are doing this and I just need a babysitter." Or if you could say "You know, I could really use a ride because I don't have reliable transportation to go that far." Ask them for help, if there's something like that that would be helpful. But if there's not just tell them "Thanks, but I'm good here. I'm going to get it taken care of. I'm good."
Sally: Great, good. Good tips.
Rachel: All right. As much as it pains us, we're only going to answer those questions today, but there were several more that we really liked and really wanted to answer and had a lot of thoughts on. I think as we've been doing this we're like, we've got to do a second episode because we have much more to say about a lot of these other topics. So hopefully we'll have part two coming soon, but in the meantime, Sally, let's find some nice things to end on.
Sally: I'm so excited about my nice thing to end on: it is the movie Thunder Force.
Rachel: Okay. I don't know anything about it.
Sally: So it's on Netflix. It is with Melissa McCarthy and Octavia Spencer. And as you know, my post-pandemic personality is just 'Melissa McCarthy fan'. My partner went away for the weekend to an Airbnb to just hang out and have some solo time, and I spent a lot of time watching just an absolute ton of movies, and Thunder Force was really delightful. It's about two childhood best friends who reunite and become an unlikely crime-fighting superhero duo.
Rachel: Okay.
Sally: And it's just silly and goofy and heartwarming. Bobby Cannavale is in it, which, he makes everything amazing. Jason Bateman is in it, I love him as well. Listen, this movie is no Spy because no movie is Spy. But Thunder Force, of all the movies I watched that weekend my partner was away, Thunder Force rises to the top as definitely going to be one of my fun feel-good go-to movies. So it's on Netflix and it's just a fun, delightful light watch.
Rachel: That sounds great. I think that's what everyone needs right now.
Sally: Exactly. Rachel, what about you? What's your nice thing to end on?
Rachel: Okay, my nice thing to end on is iced tea. As in the drink that people have sometimes. So usually in the morning after I have a cup of coffee, I'll have a second cup and I'll have tea, just because it's easier to make and I need a little bit more caffeine, but not a full-on cup of coffee going to be jittery bit of caffeine. So it occurred to me recently, oh, it's getting warmer. I should make iced tea, which my mom always made when I was growing up in the summer, and I love having it around. So it's incredibly easy to make. You boil water, you put four black tea bags in a pitcher, let it steep for three minutes. The thing I learned: mix in any sweetener while it's still hot, because otherwise it won't dissolve. So if you want it sweetened at all, put the sugar in then, and then you just pour a bunch of ice in the pitcher and stick it in the fridge, and then you're good to go. It's lovely. It's delightful. It feels like a treat. You can mix in some lemonade to make an Arnold Palmer, but I've been really enjoying iced tea lately.
Sally: I love that. I'm not really much of a tea person, especially black tea, but I used to love making -- shout out to Good Earth Sweet & Spicy Tea. Have you ever had it, Rachel?
Rachel: Mm-mm.
Sally: It's so good. It's like this herbal tea, and that I used to ice a lot in the summer and then I stopped being able to find it. It's usually one of those things you get in natural food stores or Whole Foods or whatever, and I can't find it anymore. So if you're out there and you have a Good Earth Sweet & Spicy Tea connect, I've just been reminded that I love it and I need to get back into iced tea. So, yeah. I guess we're both really excited about iced tea right now.
Rachel: Yeah. Great. Well, what a great note to end on. [Laughs].
Sally: Thanks for listening to this episode of Oh I Like That. Please rate and review us.
Rachel: You can follow us on Twitter @ohilikethatpod or email us at ohilikethatpod@gmail.com. You can also follow the two of us on Twitter: I'm @the_rewm and Sally is @sallyt. I should also say we now have an Instagram account.
Sally: Oh yeah!
Rachel: You can follow us there as well. Our Instagram is @ohilikethatpod.
Sally: Oh I Like That is produced by Rachel and Sally and edited by Lucas. Amber Seger, who is @rocketorca on social media, designed our logo.