We’re all familiar with apologies that truly lack heart, whether we’ve given them, received them, or both. But it’s not so easy to put together something that is sufficiently contrite! OR IS IT??
In this episode, we talk all about how to construct apologies that sincerely express empathy, regret for having messed up, and a promise to do better in the future. Once you’ve taken the time to really think about what you’re saying and why you’re saying it, offering a solid apology isn’t so elusive. We also talk about getting better at receiving apologies, an oft-overlooked aspect of the apology process.
P.S. On an upcoming episode we will be answering your questions about friendships—starting them, ending them, maintaining them, etc. If you have a question or need advice (or want to hear our thoughts about being or having a friend in 2021), we want you to ask us.
Email us your question at OhILikeThatpod@gmail.com. Or you can record a voice memo and send that to us at OhILikeThatpod@gmail.com, and we will play your memo in the episode. Just make sure you tell us your name (and if you’re writing in, please let us know how to pronounce it) and your pronouns.
If you want to submit a question anonymously or would like to send us a voice memo but not have it played on the air, just let us know that too!
This episode was produced by Rachel and Sally and edited by Lucas Nguyen. Our logo was designed by Amber Seger (@rocketorca). Our theme music is by Tiny Music. MJ Brodie transcribed this episode. Follow us on Twitter @OhILikeThatPod.
Things we talked about:
Rachel: Welcome to Oh I Like That, a podcast about things we like and occasionally things we don't. I'm Rachel Wilkerson Miller.
Sally: And I'm Sally Tamarkin. Rachel, good Friday.
Rachel: Good Friday to you, ma'am [laughs]
Sally: We're recording this on Friday Senior, which is the official Christian name of the day of the week otherwise known as Friday.
Rachel: I think Christians refer to it as Friday the father, actually.
Sally: Is that real?
Rachel: No.
Sally: Oh! [Laughs]
Rachel: I just meant because there's God the father, God the son, and God the Holy spirit.
Sally: I believed it fully because you went to Catholic school.
Rachel: I'm sorry. I didn't mean accidentally prank you.
Sally: No, it was great. I'm so not learned in things that are not Jewish, so you could totally invent anything and I'd be like, "Whoa!"
Rachel: Just make up holidays.
Sally: Fully. Okay. Well, anyway, it's Friday the father. What is the vibe for you right now, Rachel?
Rachel: Vibe's pretty good, because the sun decided to make a little appearance, which is nice. I just checked the mail, which is always a fun time. And I'm feeling pretty good because I am fully inoculated now, I got my second shot two weeks ago. I'm free to go out in the world and tomorrow, the thing I've been waiting for, my first hair appointment.
Sally: Yay! It's happening. It's finally happening.
Rachel: It's happening, yeah. I'm really pumped about that. So it's probably going to be a long day, but it's okay. It's going to be great to do it and have it over with.
Sally: It's going to be great. Yeah, we were talking before we started recording and I was saying that I will have gotten my hair cut I think probably four times post being fully vaccinated before I go to the dentist for the first time in over a year. So.
Rachel: I think, yeah, we've all got priorities here.
Sally: Right.
Rachel: And I'm not rushing back to the dentist, though it's on my radar as a thing I need to do.
Sally: Yeah, it's on my radar generally, but you know, I can keep my mouth closed. I can't, you know... well, I guess there are hats, I guess that's a thing. Anyway.
Rachel: [Laughs] No one can really see your mouth on a Zoom call though.
Sally: Exactly. That's the thing. Yeah. I'm feeling Friday-ish. It's sunny and breezy here, which is really nice. It's been sort of gray and humid and like you said, the sun decided to come out and I'm excited because I'm going to have a couple of vaccinated friends over.
Rachel: Nice.
Sally: Yeah, this weekend, which is going to be really fun and also weird. I was at Trader Joe's trying to, I was like... you do something when people are coming over, you buy things, I think.
Rachel: Right. Refreshments.
Sally: And so I was like refreshments, and I was like, which salty carb goes with which dip? You know what I mean? Because it's like, you've got the pita chips, you got the hummus, you have the tortilla chips, you have the salsa. There's a lot of stuff to work out. I think I worked it out. So I'm excited.
Rachel: Great!
Sally: Yeah, yeah, I'm excited to see people indoors without masks and I'll report back about how good and anxiety producing that feels.
Rachel: [Laughs] Great. Speaking of friendship and seeing people, Sally, do you want to share a little announcement with everybody?
Sally: So on an upcoming episode, we are going to answer your questions about friendships. And you can listen to, we dropped a little announcement in the feed just with all the instructions, but basically email us at ohilikethatpod@gmail.com by Tuesday, May 11th at 10:00 PM Eastern time. And ask us anything about, you know, friendships: making friends, breaking up friendships. I mean, not other people's, although maybe that'll be a question.
Rachel: Exactly, yeah. That'd be a fun one to tackle. [Laughs]
Sally: Yeah. You know, it could be a thing you have going on or a thing that happened and you're wondering if you handled it in a way that seemed... well, I mean, not that we're the arbiters of whether or not you handled something well, but we can weigh in.
Rachel: Yeah. We can give you retroactive advice, like what we would have done or what we would have recommended, and you can see how that aligns with what you did and how you're feeling.
Sally: Yeah, totally. And I think also if it's not an exact situation that you're involved in, but you want to be like, what are your thoughts on this friendship related topic? That's totally cool. So yeah, get in touch with us, ohilikethatpod@gmail.com. You can email us or you can send us a voice memo and we can play that in the episode. Just indicate to us everything about how we answer your question on the air. Do you want us to use your name? Do you want us to not use your name? If you send in a voice memo, do you want us to play it in the episode, do you want us to not play it? Let us know your pronouns, all that stuff. And we will look forward to talking friendship stuff.
Rachel: Yeah. Well, on that note, we should get into today's episode because I think we're both going to have a lot to say about it.
Sally: Yes. Another I think top 10 Rachel Sally topic.
Rachel: Yeah. Strong opinions topic.
Sally: Yeah. Strong opinions topic. We are going to talk about apologies and apologizing. Apologies are a thing that happen a lot, or should happen a lot, but are often very lacking.
Rachel: Yeah.
Sally: I think I know I have been the recipient of pretty bad apologies and also I've been the apologizer of very bad apologies. And it was a few years ago that I started to think a little bit more intentionally about what the point of apologies actually are and why it matters to do them with intention.
Rachel: Yeah. So when I think of how to apologize, I think of the Buzzfeed post that you wrote a few years ago, that to me is the gold standard for how to apologize that I kind of always return to. So do you want to kind of run through those main points to kick things off?
Sally: Yeah, totally. So I wrote this when I was on your team and I pitched this thing of 'How To Apologize Like A Goddamn Adult', especially because we were starting to see a lot of terrible... well, maybe not starting to see, but it seemed like we were seeing more terrible apologies in public, like the notes app apology from a celebrity that it turns out is a sex pest or, you know, whatever. So I did a little research. I feel like the art of the apology is a thing that people from a lot of different backgrounds have opinions on how they should be constructed and how they should go. And we'll talk about some of those later, but for me, this article on Psychology Today by Guy Winch PhD, I thought was a great formula. And we'll link to the article he wrote that I based my story on, because there's a lot more sort of explanation and content and expertise in it than there is in what I wrote. But basically, it's a five ingredient apology recipe, and the ingredients are: the first thing is you have to say you're sorry. You know, you can mix it up and be like, "I'm so sorry," "I'm real sorry," "I sure am sorry," whatever. But those words are important. I think probably different languages and different cultures have different ways of expressing sorryness, but I think in ours it is an important signifier that you're making an apology. And then kind of step 1a is you should never have the word if or but in your apology. So I mean, probably we'll get into the "I'm sorry if" apologies, but I can not -- can you think of a situation where you can include an if in an apology and the apology still works?
Rachel: Not really. No. Because I think I understand why people are tempted to do it. I think it's people who didn't mean to hurt somebody, and so they're trying to communicate that, but I think it's the kind of thing that it's like, if you're writing this out, delete those words and see what else you can come up with. I don't know. If you really need to communicate an if clause, really think about why and see if the apology still works even without it, because it's hard to think of one where it really makes sense.
Sally: Yeah, exactly. And you know, saying to yourself, never put if or but in an apology, like you indicated Rachel, it makes you have to sit down and think through what you're saying and why you're saying it. And the thing about apologies is, you're admitting some kind of fault. And the fault isn't maybe there, or possibly real, you are saying you are at fault in a real way. And an if kind of undercuts that. And so sometimes I think it's about thinking about what it is you think you're at fault for.
Rachel: Yeah.
Sally: Because I think, you know, you can kind of start in apology thinking it's one thing and then thinking about and be like, "Oh, actually it's kind of this other thing." And then the next thing is to be clear that you know what you did and that you regret it. So I gave some examples, I think I was watching Riverdale at the time. My example was--
Rachel: I was like, "Archie is an interesting choice for a name," so that makes more sense.
Sally: Yeah. "I made a bad decision by telling Archie what you said about him." "It was selfish when I bailed on our plans last minute." So basically, and none of this has to be super elaborate, it can all be very straightforward. It's just like, I know exactly what I did and I wish I hadn't done it. Then acknowledge the norm that was broken or the expectation that was not met. And I think this is one of those that -- I like to do this, I feel like it makes an apology thorough and intentional and makes it clear that when I'm apologizing, I've really thought something through. I think a lot of what we're going to talk about today really depends on the people and the relationship they have.
Rachel: Absolutely.
Sally: But acknowledging the norm that was broken or the expectation that wasn't met. So in the Archie example, "You told me something in confidence and I didn't respect that." Or in the second example about bailing on plans, "I canceled our plans so late, you probably didn't have time to make other plans." Because I think that it kind of is nice when someone, in addition to being like, "I'm so sorry, I bailed at the last minute," you acknowledge that one of the things that happens when you bail at the last minute is that you can really ruin a friend's night because they don't have time to make other plans. And it's nice to give voice to the extent of what your fuck up was. And then the last thing is to express empathy. So Guy Winch explains that this is a crucial part of the apology because it communicates to them that you've taken time to think about what it would be like to be on the receiving end of your behavior, and you realize that it would feel bad. So for the Archie situation, "It must've hurt your feelings to have someone break your confidence, especially about such a personal and sensitive thing. And I can see how it would make you wonder if you can trust me." Or, you know, in the bailing on plans example, "I'd be so pissed if I was all ready to go out and someone bailed at a point in the evening when it would be really hard to find other people to hang out with." And again, this is just like, empathy is important. I think it's a nice thing to have and to express and to just kind of live in. There is an amendment to the expressing empathy thing, which is to remember that saying "I'm sorry that you feel that way" is actually not an expression of empathy. And as I said in this post, I feel like this is the most insidious non-apology there is, because it at first glance appears to have the makings of apology. It contains the sorry statement and the acknowledgement of feelings, but without attaching any sort of admission of what you did wrong, and it also places the blame on the other person for having feelings. I would only say "I'm sorry you feel that way" if I was trying to be passive aggressive. I don't think-- [laughs]
Rachel: I had the same thought. Or if I were talking to a child who was having a temper tantrum. It's a way to acknowledge their feelings, but it's not an apology for our purpose.
Sally: No, exactly, exactly. And the last step is to ask for forgiveness, which, I feel like "ask forgiveness" sounds like something that would be explored in a Jane Austen novel. It sounds a little bit elaborate and florid for modern day conversation. But it's as simple as, "I hope you'll accept my apology," or "I hope you can forgive me," or "I know it might take awhile, but I hope that eventually you'll be able to accept my apology." I think it doesn't have to be any more than that, but it's basically, the point of this is to, you know, give the other person... make it clear that you know it's the other person who gets to decide whether to forgive you and when to do it. It's an acknowledgement that, you know, the ball's in their... not "the ball's in their court," but, you know, they get to do whatever they want at this point.
Rachel: I would say my amendment to that is to avoid saying, "Can you forgive me?" at that moment. Because that's putting them on the spot and they have to... it's kind of pressuring them to say yes for the sake of moving the conversation forward. So asking for forgiveness here is not literal. It's more like, "I hope you'll be able to forgive me," or, "I'm going to give you space, but I hope we can reconnect soon." So I feel like I would personally suggest avoiding the "Can you forgive me?"
Sally: Yeah, I would too. And I think we'll talk about that more specifically later. But yeah, that's it. I mean, it's five steps and once you get used to it, I think it kind of becomes second nature. We'll link to this article in the show notes and also to Guy Winch's article as well. So another favorite apology resource that we have -- I say we, I have not read it, but you've shared it with me enough times that I think of it as my own now. Can you tell us about your resource?
Rachel: Yeah. So this is very much building on the stuff that you just talked about. It's a book called Why Won't You Apologize?: Healing Big Betrayals and Everyday Hurts. And it's by Harriet Lerner who is a therapist. And it's really fantastic. It is just a big exploration of what makes a good apology, how to get the apology that you want. Basically, it's what to do if you're frustrated with somebody for betraying you or hurting you and they won't apologize, but in reading it, you kind of learn from both sides of it how to apologize better, but also it's really about how to get an apology, which I think is a pretty interesting angle to approach it from. So I have learned so much from this book. I sourced my own book from this book, the chapter on apologizing. I quoted Dr. Lerner quite a bit. So I'm going to share some of my favorite tips from it that have really stuck out to me that I think are so smart and so practical.
Sally: Awesome.
Rachel: So one of the things that she talks about in the book is that the more serious the offense, the harder it is to get a good apology. You might think if somebody does something that's so obviously horrible, that it should be easy to get an apology, but it's actually more difficult because the shame is greater, and so people get defensive and they kind of shut down. So if somebody did something that's really clearly horrible and they won't apologize to you, that's actually pretty normal. It's not great, but know that if you're feeling like, "What is going on here, I feel like I'm losing it," that actually makes perfect sense that they won't apologize for something that's super serious. One of the other things I thought was interesting is that if you really want the person to change, you have to make sure that you're going after their behavior versus who they are at the core. Because again, people get super defensive. And it is a bit frustrating to be like, I was wronged, why do I have to handle you so gingerly to get the apology that I want? But it's kind of like, what is your goal here? Do you want this relationship to be healed? Do you want an apology or do you just want to be right and do you want to sort of be righteous? Because if you actually want the person to change, you know, you do have to probably make this distinction. Because as soon as you attack their character, they're going to shut down. So the classic example for this is saying "You're a racist" versus "That was a really racist thing to say." And again, it's frustrating because sometimes you want to just be like, "You're a racist, no, let's be clear here."
Sally: Sometimes you are racist.
Rachel: You are. Right. But I think it kind of depends on the position that you're in. Are you the person who's really close to this person who can actually get them to listen, and you have an opportunity to get them to change? Then be mindful of the fact that attacking who they are is probably not going to do it.
Sally: It's also a really intense project to take on, to try to change someone at their core, because at a certain point you have to wonder, maybe this isn't the friendship for me if I'm trying to change them at their core. I think it's a really different thing to be like, let me help someone understand why this behavior hurt me so they can not do it again.
Rachel: So one of the things that I really like in this book is that she talks about when people's apology makes it so about them that there's actually not space for other people. So one of the things that Dr Lerner writes is, it's not a true apology if overdoing how terrible you feel about your misdeed leaves the hurt party feeling worse. So I think we've now, in this new era of social justice playing out on social media, we're starting to see in real time what a good apology looks like, what a bad apology looks like. And when people really center themselves in their apology. And we've seen a lot of white people just going on about how guilty they feel and how, you know, "I was up crying all night thinking about that racist thing I said to you." And if you're apologizing, that conversation shouldn't end with the person you hurt comforting you. If that's where things are going, you're off track. It's time to reset. You've got to process this in your own time with your therapist, with your partner, whoever that person might be, so that you're able to apologize in a way that puts the focus on them. And that's not to say that you can't get emotional, because we all do, and when you hurt somebody who you care about it's easy to feel emotional, but I think kind of keeping in check that they shouldn't feel like they need to comfort you. And that might mean you need to practice this a couple of times so that you don't get too emotional or you need to rewrite it and delete it, but just try to avoid centering how bad you feel.
Sally: Absolutely.
Rachel: And again, I think it comes from a well-meaning place of, I'm trying to communicate to you how seriously I'm taking this, but this isn't about you. It's about them.
Sally: That's, one of the things I like about the five ingredient recipe is that it builds in the regret and the empathy without having to, you know, throw yourself wailing and gnashing on the floor and grab their ankles and say, "I'm so sorry, can you ever forgive me, this is how bad I feel."
Rachel: Totally. Another thing that she talks about is over-apologizing. And I mean, that's exactly what it sounds like. And she writes that over-apologizing creates distance and interrupts the flow of normal conversation. It will irritate your friends and also make it harder for them to hear you when you offer an apology that you really need to give. So she uses the example of, if you've forgotten to return your friend's salad bowl, don't apologize numerous times as if you ran over her kitten. Don't overdo it because it's just too much and it'll make people feel... it doesn't feel genuine because it's like, well, that doesn't map to the thing that you did, so you're kind of bullshitting me. So I think being mindful of that, especially because, I mean, in the past few years we've seen those articles that are like, "Women apologize too much! I apologized to a desk when I ran into it!" We all have a tendency, I think, to maybe apologize when we don't need to. But I think it's about that wailing dramatic apology for something that's ultimately not that big of a deal. So kind of check in with yourself to make sure that the tenor of your apology matches what actually happened.
Sally: Yeah. Especially because if you apologize a lot or over-apologize, that's another way in which you're making the other person have to say, "Oh, that's okay, that's okay," over and over and over again, and that's so fucking annoying.
Rachel: I agree. Okay. So this one, which is hard for me to put into practice in many ways, but I think is a good bit of advice, is that if you want to get a good apology from somebody else, make your grievance much shorter. So she says that if we think we won't get through to somebody, we often want to increase the intensity and length of our argument. We want to list out in great detail everything they did wrong and why they should be apologizing. And she's basically like, people get defensive, they tune out. They're not going to take all of that in. So maybe you want to write all this out and then you cut it down to a fifth of that and just make it quick. "You did X, it really hurt me." You don't need to go into a seven part masterclass on why they fucked up.
Sally: That's also really hard for me too, because I am someone who has a manifesto for everything.
Rachel: Exactly [laughs]
Sally: So it's really hard for me to put the manifesto aside and just in a succinct way be like, "Hey, this is the deal."
Rachel: Yeah. And then she has some stuff in there about receiving an apology. And one thing that I took away from this is if you're feeling really defensive when somebody comes to you with a criticism, it's okay to take a minute, because what you don't want to do is, somebody comes to you and they're like, "Hey, you fucked up," and you're just like, "No I didn't." And you just kind of snap and lose it and get really emotionally flooded and can't hear them. That's not good. So it's okay to just say, "I hear what you're saying. I'm finding myself getting really defensive and I don't want to do that because I know that'll make things worse. I heard everything you've said, is it okay if I take a minute to process it or cool down or go outside for a second to catch my breath, and then we can talk about this a little bit more." Most people will respond to that if you're doing it from a place of genuineness and you really want to do it, if you're making it clear, "I'm doing this because I don't want to have a fight with you. What you're saying is important. I'm not trying to avoid this. I'm trying to hear you better, and I know myself well enough to know that I'm not able to have a productive conversation right now, but I just need a few minutes to process to kind of calm down." Most people will respond well to that. If you're on the other side of that, and somebody says that to you, let them have that moment if they're asking for it. That's kind of a hard thing to ask for, actually, and it shows that they're trying. So give people that space if they need it. She says that the most important thing you can do when you've hurt somebody is to listen to them tell you how much you've heard them, to hear their pain. And so if you are unable to do that, if you want to interrupt them and if you want to shut them down, that's really bad. You need to pause until you're in a place where you can just sit there and let them tell you, "You really hurt me. You really let me down." And that is really the gift you give somebody after you've hurt them. That is what is owed to them, is to sit there and just let them. And you know, hopefully they won't come to you with a manifesto, but you do have to make a little space for them to just share how much you've hurt them.
Sally: Yeah. That's awesome. That's one of the things that reminds me of what apologies are meant to do. They're meant to facilitate accountability and repairing harm, because if we don't do these things in these ways or with intention, why should anyone feel different before they get an apology versus after, you know?
Rachel: Yeah. Another thing that she talks about in here is, don't use an apology as sort of a bargaining chip or a get out of jail free card in the sense of, well, I apologized to you. Why can't we move on? Sometimes that's not enough. Sometimes it's like, "Okay, thank you, I appreciate the apology, but I'm still not ready to see you again or talk to you again," or "Thank you for the apology. I still don't want to be friends," or whatever the case may be. So if you're viewing apologies as, well, I've done the thing, I said I was sorry, that's probably not the place to be coming from, because it's going to come across as not genuine. It's good to be willing to apologize, but if you're too quick to apologize before you even had a chance to understand what you did wrong, before you've actually listened to the other person's pain, it's not going to be the solution that you're hoping for. It's going to just come across as dismissive. This book is very, very helpful. It's really smart. It really is about family therapy in a lot of ways, or couples therapy. So if you are dealing with a tense relationship with an estranged family member or a child or something to that effect, this is a great book to read. But it's also just, if you're just interested in being a good person in the world and understanding social connections and relationships a little bit better, I feel like this is a really good resource. It's a breezy read. It's very easy to get through, but it gives you such an insight of apologies all around. And I mean, she's a therapist, she's talking to people who are dealing with serious, serious betrayals. It's, you know, families who kicked a kid out for whatever reason, or said horrible things to each other, or instances of abuse. These are pretty serious harms. And so, I said it was a breezy read and it is, despite what I just said. I guess my point is, it's talking about really serious things and it's helpful to have this as a manual. Hopefully you never find yourself in a situation like that, but I find it's helpful to sort of be proactive and learn about these kinds of things before it comes to that. And to better understand why some apologies don't feel good. She does a lot of explaining pseudo-apologies and why they feel bad. And so I think it's helpful to have that knowledge, so when somebody does apologize and you're like, "They said they're sorry, why don't I feel better?" I feel this book provides a good amount of insight into why an apology might not feel like it's working or why you're having trouble forgiving somebody even after they've apologized. So, highly recommend it. Why Won't You Apologize? by Dr. Harriet Lerner, and we'll link to it as well.
Sally: That's awesome. Dr. Harriet Lerner and Dr. Guy Lynch coming in hot with the apology info. So when we were preparing for this, we were just kind of looking at what has been written about apologies and apologizing. And we came across a book by the two people who wrote about love languages. They wrote about apology languages, which I think we were initially really excited to look into. And then we took the quiz on their site and we found out our apology languages, and I guess for me, some of it resonated, but as we started to scientifically validate the tool, we started to have some reservations. But do you want to take us through the five apology languages?
Rachel: Yeah. And I should say, I love the five love languages. I think they're really accurate and helpful. I think it's a really good tool. I did not quite feel the same way about the apology languages, in part because I found the quizzes very annoying and just kind of basic and obvious, which, I want a quiz that's not so clearly communicating which answer I'm choosing. Okay. So the five languages that they offer are, and it's the way that you would most like to receive an apology. So these are the things you want the other person to do: expressing regret, accepting responsibility, making restitution, genuinely repenting, and requesting forgiveness. So I think both of us had the reaction when we were taking this quiz, I want the person to do all five of these things for the most part. And looking at them spelled out like that, it's like, this feels very similar to the five ingredient apology. So I think one of the problems with this quiz is you have to choose an either/or where I'm like, I wish I could choose first this then that. I wish I could choose two for each of them because a lot of them kind of feel like they go hand in hand. So we both did the quiz. My primary apology language according to this is 'make restitution', which I can read a little bit of what that means, but there's a bit of a strange thing happening in this quiz where making restitution and genuinely repenting have a lot of overlap and I chose restitution more, but I think after reading the description of repenting, that's the one that clicks more for me. So the way they define this is: expressing regret is saying "I am sorry," accepting responsibility is "I was wrong," making restitution is "What can I do to make it right," genuinely repenting is "I'll try not to do that again," and requesting forgiveness is "will you please forgive me?" One of the things about requesting forgiveness is that when you're taking the quiz, every single one of those has some version of "Will you please forgive me?" And so it's very obvious. So it's like, "Can you ever forgive me?" Or "Forgiveness? Yes? You, maybe?" It just is very obvious that the word forgive is in all of those. And it comes across as a bit corny and on the nose in a way that I was like, "I can't listen to this anymore."
Sally: We also both wanted to have a breakup with the person who kept saying that, or a friend breakup, whoever they were, because I was so annoyed by the fictitious-- what the quiz is, is you get a scenario that's like, "Your spouse has failed to acknowledge your wedding anniversary. This is what they should say." Or "Your mother knew how you felt about a matter and knowingly went against your wishes. Here's how they should apologize." And the person who is doing the requesting forgiveness one is so fucking annoying. [Laughs]
Rachel: It's really annoying.
Sally: They're like, "Can you ever--" it's very, again with the sort of Jane Austen and the wailing and gnashing of teeth thing. It's just like, I wouldn't even be friends with this person.
Rachel: No.
Sally: So why are they talking to me? Why are they apologizing to me?
Rachel: Yeah. I acknowledge that there's all kinds of apology languages, and some people want to hear the words, "Will you please forgive me," but I think if you take the quiz you'll see why we found it so grating. But the thing was, making restitution is "what can I do to make it right," genuinely repenting is "I'll try not to do that again." For me, those go hand in hand. I think it's really important to examine what caused you to do something and to both try to fix it and also have a promise of, this won't happen again. And so even though my primary one was making restitution, "What can I do to make it right," I think genuinely repenting, the "I'll try not to do that again," is so important. Because for me, I want to hear somebody say, you know, with the example of your spouse forgot your wedding anniversary, I think the "what can I do to make it right" is important. Like, "I know I forgot this. How can I make it up to you? I want to plan something special." But also the "I'll try not to do that again," I think the example they give in the quiz is, "I'll circle it on my calendar for next year." And that's silly, but I do think saying "I realize sometimes I'm really scatterbrained about important dates, so I'm going to make better use of my calendar and make sure that I don't let that happen again, because I want you to know how much I care about you." I do think that's important because otherwise it's like, have you learned anything from this? So I think that's why I'm really drawn to those two. Sally, what was your main language?
Sally: Rachel, my primary apology language was expressing regret, which is saying "I am sorry." So it gives you basically a percentage in each one. So it was 50% expressing regret, 35% accepting responsibility, which is the saying "I was wrong" one. 10% genuinely repent, which is saying, "I will try not to do that again," which I think we got a little bit confused because "I will try not to do that again"... it's great, but it doesn't sound like genuine repenting. And then 5% make restitution, which as Rachel was explaining is "What can I do to make this right?" And then 0% asking for forgiveness.
Rachel: We both had 0% asking for forgiveness, which I think is really funny. [Laughs]
Sally: Yeah. We were 0% and wanted to throw our computer out the window. So I think that I'm a little surprised that I was... actually, I don't know. I think 50% expressing regret, 35% accepting responsibility... those are probably two of the most important components of an apology to me, so I can see how that makes sense. And I think when you see the way that they score your quiz and you see that it's a percentage in each, it makes more sense. Because it's not saying, you know, an apology is one of these things. It's saying an apology is all of these things, which are the ones that are most important to you to hear? So, I mean, that's fair enough. I don't necessarily think that I agree with how they define what repenting is, for example.
Rachel: Yeah. It felt a little off.
Sally: It just, yeah, it just felt a little off. And I think that this is... not to rank these different resources we're talking about. The book is called The Five Languages of Apology: How to Experience Healing in All Your Relationships. Maybe they go deeper into apologies and how they work in relationships the way Guy Winch and Harriet Lerner do. But, you know, I think from just the quiz that we took, it felt a little bit more... I mean, it's a quiz.
Rachel: Right.
Sally: It felt a little bit more like a shortcut that is meant to sort of alert you to the fact that this is even a thing to think about. And in a society that's obsessed with crime and punishment and carceral responses to causing harm, I think not many of us are socialized to really think about apologies as a system of facilitating accountability and repairing harm. I think we think a lot about them in a kind of transactional way where it's like, "Well, they think I fucked up, so I better say sorry so that we can move past it," or, "Yeah, I did this thing wrong, I better say sorry so we can move past it," instead of thinking about "Okay, how do I take responsibility? How do I express empathy?" And then I think it also really is work for the other person, which sounds like a lot of what the book you were talking about focuses on Rachel, which is learning how to accept apologies, and learning how to integrate a good apology into your relationship and stuff like that. So I think this apology language situation is maybe a nice start, but not as in-depth as some of the other resources we talked about.
Rachel: Yeah. I think if anything, it's a good thing to, you know, I think it's always helpful to take little quizzes to learn more about yourself and to discuss with friends or a partner so that you can better understand each other. So taking it and then discussing your results and if it feels right to you, I think is a worthwhile activity. But I don't think this is quite as helpful as the five love languages core thing. I feel like they tried to extend the brand a bit and maybe it didn't work as well as they had hoped. But, you know, take the quiz, see what you get, see if it feels right to you, and it could be helpful.
Sally: Yeah, I totally agree. So I think that's it for this episode on apologies. I'd like to reserve the right to maybe revisit this in the future, because we love talking about apologies and apologizing.
Rachel: Yeah. I think this is our sort of foundational text on apologies, but we may have more to say in the future. So I would also like to revisit this later, should we need to.
Sally: Yeah. For volumes two through a hundred.
Rachel: [Laughs]
Sally: Rachel, what is your nice thing to end on?
Rachel: My nice thing to end on is that a friend of mine, a long time blogging friend, Jessica Merchant, who writes the blog How Sweet Eats, has published a new cookbook that is out this week. It's called Everyday Dinners: Real-Life Recipes to Set Your Family Up for a Week of Success. It just arrived this morning and I'm very excited to start cooking from it. I got to look at an advanced copy, I think it's great. Jessica is one of my favorites. We've met in person a few times, we're very friendly, and she's a great recipe writer and comes up with really good recipes. And the recipes in this book are no exception, so highly recommend it. And yeah, just wanted to plug my friend's book. It's nice that this is out in the world now.
Sally: That sounds awesome. This reminds me, Rachel, of how many cookbooks and just books we would be sent in offices, like galleys and stuff like that. Are you getting a lot of books at home?
Rachel: I only am getting ones I'm specifically asking for, because no one has my address. So I'm guessing that there's a bunch of them piling up at the Vice office, but not here. Also, though, I use NetGalley, which is a way to get books sent for my Kindle so I can avoid the mess of having too many books. But this is one I have the hardcover book because it's worth it.
Sally: Nice. I was talking to a friend who was talking about people they know who are lifestyle journalists who need to review refrigerators, and are getting refrigerators delivered to their home. [Laughs].
Rachel: Oh my god, I didn't even think about that.
Sally: Okay. My nice thing to end on is the podcast Boring Books for Bedtime, which is basically it's someone reading a boring book into a microphone in a tone that can only be described as...
Rachel: Dulcet?
Sally: Well, I was actually going to say unimaginably even and relaxed and slow, to the point where when I started listening to this podcast, I was like, "She's performing reading in a chill way so much that I'm distracted. I hate this." And then one minute later I was like, "I'm getting sleepy."
Rachel: I genuinely need this in my life. So thank you.
Sally: Yeah. So basically, you know, I'll wake up in the middle of the night, not able to sleep. And what I often will do is watch a TV show and you know, I'll fall asleep eventually, but those things are stimulating. I don't want to go to sleep because I'm watching Parks and Rec and I'm waiting for the next joke. So I was like, what else can I do? I don't want to read, because then when I read in the middle of the night, I forget everything I've read because I'm too sleepy, it's like a whole thing. Okay. Boring Books for Bedtime. So here are some examples of things that she reads: Manual of Egyptian Archaeology and Guide to Antiquities; A Winter Walk by Henry David Thoreau; 1897 Sears Roebuck and Company Catalog, Musical Goods Department; The Prophet by Kahlil Gibran; The History of Bread by John Ashton; Politics by Aristotle; Bicycling for Ladies by Maria E. Ward. I'm guessing these are all things that there's no copyright problem with.
Rachel: Right, right.
Sally: US Internal Revenue Service Publication 583, Starting a Business. So, you know, you can really choose, and there's a ton of episodes. So you can say, I don't think I want to listen to The Principles of Geology tonight, but Transatlantic Eastbound Passenger Sailings, 1925 sounds pretty good.
Rachel: [Laughs]
Sally: And I will tell you that it's the perfect mix of, oh, that's an interesting thing for someone to read and then you're instantly asleep. It's, you know, if you've ever taken any kind of, like a Benadryl that makes you sleepy where all of a sudden, one second you're awake and another second you're waking up -- truly, this is what I have experienced with this app. You know, so definitely listen to it if you need help sleeping, don't be turned off by the extremely slow, deliberate... it's almost like, that SNL skit where they do NPR voice? It's almost like that, but even more slow and deliberate. Just bear with it, let it play out and you will be asleep.
Rachel: That sounds great. I genuinely need this because lately we've been wanting to fall asleep to podcasts and we don't have one that fits this bill because we listen to podcasts we want to listen to, and so we can't find one that makes sense for bedtime. So this is a great recommendation.
Sally: Yeah. It's great. Okay, well, we did it. Thank you everyone for listening to this episode of Oh I Like That. Thank you to everyone who has rated and reviewed us on iTunes. If you can please do that now, right now, right this moment.
Rachel: This exact moment.
Sally: That'd be great. [Laughs] We'd really appreciate it.
Rachel: Follow us on Twitter @ohilikethatpod or email us at ohilikethatpod@gmail.com. You can also follow the two of us. I'm @the_rewm and Sally is @sallyt.
Sally: Oh I Like That is produced by Rachel and Sally and edited by Lucas. Amber Seger, who is @rocketorca on social media, designed our logo.