“Can an electric toothbrush really be ‘proud’?” and other pressing questions.
Every year when June rolls around, a whole bunch of conversations continue and other ones begin anew—conversations about identity, representation, safety, freedom, liberation, and…rainbow-colored corporate logos. So we decided to jump right into a few of those topics, and share our thoughts on things like cops at Pride (no), kink at Pride (yes), what it means to show up as an “ally,” and more.
This episode was produced by Rachel and Sally and edited by Lucas Nguyen. Our logo was designed by Amber Seger (@rocketorca). Our theme music is by Tiny Music. MJ Brodie transcribed this episode. Follow us on Twitter @OhILikeThatPod.
Things we talked about:
Rachel: Welcome to Oh I Like That, a podcast about things we like and occasionally things we don't. I'm Rachel Wilkerson Miller.
Sally: And I'm Sally Tamarkin. Good Friday, Rachel.
Rachel: Good Friday, Sally. How's it going?
Sally: It's going okay. I'm just going to get right into my vibe, because I don't want to waste a moment's time because we have a lot of stuff to talk about that things we like and things we don't today. I just want to say that it's cool and breezy here, but it's also very sunny and the vibe is just weather. Because I'm just really appreciating, the most salient part of my day so far is the weather and it's been a big week here for Mother Nature. We had a big old thunder and lightning storm, we had some really high heat and humidity, and now it feels like we're just ready to relax and welcome the weekend with some low key weather that's not statement weather. I feel like what Mother Nature was doing earlier this week, at least here in Philly, was statement weather. And now we're just sort of, we're wearing, Mother Nature is in a plain Gap tee and just some nice old pair of worn out jeans, maybe some Chucks, and just kind of going about her life, which I'm into.
Rachel: Yeah. I would say 'the vibe is weather' is a good way of putting it. The vibe is three-day weekend. We've got Memorial Day coming up on Monday, which is great. So I'm like, okay, a nice, cool breezy morning, but still sunny to kick off the weekend. Although I think the weather is going to be terrible this weekend, which is a real bummer.
Sally: Oh, man.
Rachel: But I'm holding out hope that the weather apps are wrong and it's going to change each day to be surprisingly good. So fingers crossed.
Sally: I would love that. Okay. Fingers crossed weather-wise. I want to just say I could talk about the weather for a lot longer.
Rachel: Yeah.
Sally: I think we're not going to, I think we're going to get into our topic.
Rachel: [Laughs] I think that's probably the right move, but I agree. We could probably talk about this for way too long, but. Way too long. Yeah.
Sally: So when this episode comes out, it's going to be June, which as you probably know is Pride month, which is to say it is the month that a lot of cities have their Pride events and marches and parties and stuff like that. And it is the month that we -- here in the US, I'm not actually sure what the deal is internationally -- but in the US it's where we in theory remember the Stonewall riots and think about liberation, and in reality [laughs] we go to marches and indulge in cool merch and stuff like that. And sometimes a combo of the two, but we thought it would be kind of interesting to talk about Pride and just to kind of talk about our just different thoughts we're having as we go into Pride. Like all things in I guess the 21st century or 2021, the discourse about Pride started in early May, which I was saying to Rachel reminds me of when I worked at different media brands and you would start getting holiday related pitches in early August.
New Speaker: Mm-hmm [laughs]
Sally: [Laughs] So it feels like we're just kind of preparing for the month really far in advance. But I guess, so we have a few different things to talk about. And I just wanted to maybe start by just talking about our own relationships to Pride. How do you feel about Pride? What's your relationship to it now? And what has it been in the past?
Rachel: I feel Pride-neutral, or neutral-posi I guess. It's one of those things that every year in May, I'm like, ugh, whatever, Pride. And then May 31st to June 1st I'm like, this is great. I love this. Let's keep doing this. And it's less about, you know, the campaigns from, I don't know, Barnes and Noble and a brand that I bought something from five years ago that are sending me an email and more about just the overall vibe, the different events and programming that aren't specifically about a parade, but more just queer art and queer people. And I think because it comes at the beginning of summer it's also, to me when I think of Pride, I think of queer summer is beginning and that's a good feeling. So that feels exciting and positive to me. But I'm also not like, "this is the most important thing in the world and I will defend it at all costs." I'm just like, "I enjoy this." Before 2019, my relationship to Pride was just like, "Oh, it's Pride. Pride's happening." You know, I didn't think much of it beyond that, unless it came up in something we were working on editorially and it was like, oh yeah, we should think about that. But I think at Buzzfeed it was similarly, with so many queer people there, stuff was going on and we did stuff for it. But at the same time, it was like, we do this year round. We don't necessarily need to go too hard right now. So that's kind of where I stand on it. What about you?
Sally: Yeah. I mean, I feel like, you know, as I was listening to you just now I realized that when we talk about Pride, we're talking about so many different things. Because I think it's, you know, especially in New York, there's a huge parade that's sort of historically important in many ways. And then there's also, you know, museums and libraries do cool things to highlight queer people from history and queer liberation, stuff like that. And then there's also corporations that release rainbow-colored merchandise.
New Speaker: [Laughs] Right.
Sally: Or a credit card with #lovewins on it for some reason.
Rachel: Yeah.
Sally: So I think we're talking about a whole bunch of different things, and I think it's important to remember that, because I was actually just going to go into a whole thing about being sort of critical of Pride, but I want to say upfront that, you know, Pride encompasses a lot of things and I get that. And so having said that, I've been to New York City Pride one time. It was in the early 2000s, and it was really... so it always happens in June, obviously. It's really crowded, so it was really hot. It was really crowded. It was really loud and everyone was partying and those are all things that I don't like.
Rachel: [Laughs] Yeah.
Sally: If there were even one of those things, I would be like, uh, I'm not going to stay that long.
Rachel: Right.
Sally: But when you take all of them, it's just not for me. So I feel like it's a little bit unfair of me to be like, "Man, Pride's the worst," because it's like, no one should ask me what my opinion is of things that don't appeal to me.
Rachel: Right.
Sally: Like, I shouldn't be critiquing, I don't even know, French documentaries or football games. Because I don't know anything about those things and they're not for me anyway. [Laughs]
Rachel: Right.
Sally: So maybe it's kind of the same with Pride, but, you know, the Pride as a party thing, I don't-- oh, and I've been to smaller Prides, There's a cute Pride in North Hampton, Massachusetts that's really cute, and I've been to the ones in Hartford and stuff like that. And they're just like, it's cool to be in a sea of queer people, but, I have to say that I don't feel that being there feels like being home, or it doesn't represent my relationship to queerness really. It's just, you know, rainbows and beads and stuff like that is just, not that I have a judgment of it, but it's just not really my jam. So I feel a little bit like, it kind of reminds me of when in high school, everyone was really into Ani DiFranco, high school and college. And I just really didn't like her music and it felt like there was something... I had a friend that would call me the anti-dyke because I didn't like it. And not because I had some sort of a stand against things that were traditionally queer. It's just that there were things in the early 2000s about being queer that didn't resonate with me, like Ani DiFranco and the Indigo Girls, folky stuff. And I guess I'm talking about white queerness right now. And I feel like, not that that is all that Pride is, but big Pride events feel like they capture that sort of mainstream 'love wins' vibe in a way that I'm not into. And I realize I'm collapsing a lot of different things into that observation, but I guess it's because I'm still kind of trying to understand it and pick it apart for myself. But I guess that's sort of my half-baked take on why I've never really been that into Pride. And the other thing is, I mean, I think Pride is great for people who get something out of it. I think there are a lot of people who feel a connection to it and feel they really need it. And it can be a safe place and it can be one of the few places that people can feel like they can be out and all that stuff. And so in no way is my position 'ban Pride, Pride is bad'.
Rachel: [Laughs] Right.
Sally: I just have never really felt particularly connected to it. And I kind of wish I did, because it seems like it would be cool to have that, but yeah, I guess that's kind of my take. And I think we can talk about some of the other things that we have planned to talk about, maybe we can move into them now, because they kind of are connected to my skepticism about Pride.
Rachel: Yeah, definitely. Well, I think one of the big things that there's a lot of criticism around, correctly so, is the corporate aspect of Pride and you know, sort of, there's a lot of angles to this. I think that in something like a parade, there's obviously a financial incentive to include bigger companies that can pay for expensive floats, that allows smaller ones to join. And I don't know all the ins and outs of that. So corporations in like, a New York City Pride parade is sort of a separate issue from what we're going to talk about, which is just corporate merch, and, you know, every company dropping their Pride line. I'm getting so many pitches. I think a representative example is the toothbrush that I got the other day.
Sally: I was hoping you would talk about this.
Rachel: Yeah. It's a Pride toothbrush that is not cute to my mind. I think it's actually, I would call it hideous, but maybe others would disagree. It's a rainbow gradient, but not a cute one. And they've renamed the speeds of the toothbrush, so instead of... like, one of the original names is, I think it's 'the cleaning' is the speed, it's the medium speed, and they've renamed it 'Werk'. W-E-R-K. And then they've renamed the speed that is 'whitening', which, I don't even think this is a real thing of how toothbrushes work, but the whitening speed has been renamed 'Yaaass'. And I'm just like, what is going on here? And to their credit, they're donating to LGBTQ charities, every pitch that I've gotten so far, that's been included. So I'm like, okay, you get that. Thank God there's that. But also, what if you just donated? And the money and time and energy you spent making the thing that's inevitably going to end up in a landfill, you just put that money into the people who need it. And my feeling is, you don't need to make a toothbrush. You need to have queer people in your ad campaigns. You need to hire queer people and treat them well and provide them with good benefits. And you need to give money to charities or nonprofits. And that's the extent of it. We don't need a shitty toothbrush, I don't think, but maybe there's some people who are seeing that or the Listerine or whatever the case may be and are feeling really good about it.
Sally: This to me is the curse of increased representation, is that you have to deal with terrible pandering. And it's like, on the one hand, is it cool that now it's okay enough in lots of pockets of culture to identify as gay or lesbian that we can get merch that's rainbow colored? Or would it be better for that to not exist? Because I don't think our choice is, instead of the rainbow toothbrush, can we just have you hire people, treat them well, give them good benefits, donate money to queer-- I don't think those are the two things we're choosing between, you know?
Rachel: No, we're not.
Sally: So it's like, is it good that we have these products? And I personally feel such intense rage when I see that kind of stuff, and when I see various companies making their logos rainbow. Alcoholic, various liquors releasing weird, not just rainbow products, but weird ad campaigns. And also, you know, corporations that are harmful and exploitative co-opting some aspect of queer culture just to sell us things. And also, I have to say, the appropriation of black queer language and experience, of using things like 'Yaaass' and stuff -- all that shit becoming mainstream is one thing, but that stuff being used to sell products? This is what I think really feeds into my skepticism around Pride. And it's interesting because, you know, this can be said for almost anything in American culture. You know, Christmas can also be ruined by corporations and cheesy decorations and corporations trying to get you to put yourself into debt to give each other presents. But it doesn't ruin Christmas for me. So it's not an apples to apples thing in any way, but I guess I'm just sort of observing that for me, that stuff does have an outsized kind of impact on the extent to which I can really enjoy Pride.
Rachel: Yeah. That makes perfect sense. I think we don't really have a clear understanding of the bell curve of representation and corporate support, because obviously it doesn't mean nothing and these things do matter to some extent. The more that corporations do this, there is an opportunity to say, "Hey, how are you treating your employees?" And there's an opportunity for employees to say, "Hey, you're doing this outwardly, how do you treat us behind the scenes?" So there is some of that. And I think that in the past, I don't know, five to ten years, maybe five years, companies have gotten savvier about, yeah, we do need to donate, we do need to make sure our benefits are up to snuff. All those kinds of things. So I don't think it's nothing, but I think it probably peaks fairly quickly. And it's really hard to measure. I also think accessibility comes into play here to some degree, like when we were talking about things being available at a Target or a Walmart or something like that -- yeah, for people who don't have a ton of access to be able to, you know, buy something from an indie, queer-owned business in Brooklyn, I want them to be able to get a t-shirt that they can wear, and maybe they're going to be the only one in their class or wherever they are, in their office or wherever wearing that pin or that t-shirt or whatever. So I think that there's also that aspect of it. And I think this is the constant choice we have to make in American culture and living with capitalism is just like, we can't escape the fact that sometimes these things serve a need. And it sucks, because those are sometimes the choices we have. It's like buying the Pride t-shirt from Walmart or not feeling represented and seen at all, and it's a bummer that those are the options. And I don't know what to do about that, but I feel like that's sometimes missing from the discourse is just, sometimes this stuff is helpful or necessary or does make people feel affirmed. And I don't want to take that away from them.
Sally: Yeah, totally. I think that it's almost never about an individual person getting a piece of apparel. It's about the choices that were given by corporations, because so much of our lives here are ruled by what we consume. And just the fact that we are in a place where getting apparel with a rainbow on it from a corporation is the most liberatory option a lot of us have is just... that's not a statement on individuals who want to wear certain apparel, that's a statement on our really depressing, racial capitalist system, you know?
Rachel: Yeah.
Sally: And I just, I want better for all of us.
Rachel: I do too, which I think is a great transition into just the actual merchandise that these companies are putting out and how often... I was having this thought this morning because I was thinking about this episode of just, I don't really know any gay people who want to wear all the colors of the rainbow at once in the way that they're typically designed. So much of this stuff is just not very cute or wearable. Like yeah, technically it does the job, but who is this for exactly? And it just feels so corny in many instances and it feels like it's not really designed for us exactly, or by us.
Sally: Yeah. There were a couple of awesome tweets that I'm going to link to in the show notes that are kind of send ups of how corporations think about Pride apparel, which, I feel like every time someone tries to describe a meme or a good tweet, just a little piece of our happiness as human beings floats away from us. So I'm not going to describe them, but I will link to them. But one of the things that I can't help but notice in the Target -- the Target Pride line is unbelievably vast. And one of the things that they have is a fully all over rainbow jacket and matching shorts or something. I can't remember exactly what it is, but it's essentially wall-to-wall rainbow. And the thing about it is that it looks like a costume to me.
Rachel: Yeah.
Sally: And that's kind of the vibe of a lot of the stuff that is out there, is that it feels like a costume. And you know, there's nothing wrong with wearing costumes. There's nothing wrong with celebrating in playful ways, but it does raise the question: who is this for? And you know, it doesn't really have a for us by us kind of a vibe, I guess I would say.
Rachel: No.
Sally: So another Pride related thing that I think is worth talking about, that I think people have been talking about for quite some time but is now more kind of being considered by the mainstream, is about the presence of cops at Pride parades. So the organizers of New York City's Pride events announced that they're banning police and other law enforcement from marching in their parade until at least 2025, and on-duty cops will have to stay a block away from the celebration. And so what they're doing is increasing community-based security, which I don't know what that means, and first responders. And, you know, the idea is that police, they've terrorized queer communities and communities of color pretty severely, pretty bad history there [laughs]. And so a great many queer people do not feel safe with cops around, and also do not feel that cops should be allowed to celebrate Pride when their relationship to queer communities and just to liberation and marginalized people in general is... to say it's a fraught relationship is the most passive voice understatement in the entire world, but you catch my meaning. And so this has been, this is great. I love this. I love this for us. But you know, some people are real mad -- including, for example, the New York Times editorial board who wrote an op-ed about it. And cops. [Laughs]
Rachel: Yeah. I mean, this is long overdue and, you know, a lot of people have kind of made the observation of like, yeah, you can't have Pride without cops as... yeah, we know what happened, both at Stonewall and also last year. We watched cops beating the shit out of people last summer, this isn't, "Oh, this was years ago. Why don't you just get over it?" This is recent history. We don't want you here. And, I'm sorry, I don't want to see a New York PD police cruiser in a rainbow wrap and be expected to cheer for it. Get the fuck out of here. No, thank you. I understand that there are gay cops just there are black cops. Quite frankly, I don't care. Take this as an opportunity to reflect on the job you've chosen and your life choices, and if there's a better way to help people, if that's what you really care about. But, I don't know man, 'cop' is not an identity that you were... [Laughs] You can link to this in the show notes, there's a great Defector piece that's basically written from the perspective of a cop that's like, you know, "I was born this way. I was born a cop. And when I grew up, I didn't know other kids were like me who secretly carried a bully stick with them at all times to beat people with it." It's very expertly done, but just, a cop is a job. You're not a protected class, you're not entitled to representation in this thing when you are actively perpetuating harm to this day right now on queer people and people of color and queer people of color. I can't even believe this is... I mean, I can believe it, but I was so disgusted by that New York Times op-ed. Fuck you.
Sally: Yeah. I was disgusted by it as well. And it's really interesting because the moment that we're in, I feel like is this interesting one where things are happening and being talked about in mainstream places that haven't been as much until now. For example, cops are banned from Pride or marching in the Pride parade. People are talking about Palestine in a different way, not to veer into a different topic, but major news networks are actually airing Palestinian people in Gaza talking about the situation there. You know, the Black Lives Matter movement and abolishing the police. I feel like we're in this moment -- I guess every moment feels like we're in a moment, but it just feels increasingly like conversations about kind of liberation are coming up to the mainstream more, which is awesome. But then I think the result is that we have to then deal with not just how the people on the right react to that, but people, you know, in the center and people who think of themselves as left of center, who are incredibly horny for complacency and assimilationism, and not challenging things too much, and being polite and staying in our places and stuff like that. And it's definitely the double-edged sword of when people who represent the status quo and the owning class, whether that's owning the economy or the means of production or who own, I guess, the ability to show up and be safe anywhere they want. When they feel that that ownership is threatened, you know, they want to undermine you and they want to undermine liberatory movements and stuff like that. And so that's kind of the double-edged sword. Or, I don't know if it's a double-edged sword, but whatever, that's happening at the same time that all of this really exciting progressive movement building is happening.
Rachel: Yeah, absolutely.
Sally: Okay. And actually, speaking of assimilationist nonsense, Rachel, what's the next thing on our Pride to talk about list?
Rachel: Next up is kink at Pride, which is another one of these ongoing debates, but that has sort of popped off this year early. And that is just basically, should visible kink, dressing in a way that represents kink, be allowed at Pride, which flooded into the Twitter discourse last week because of some really bad faith takes that went viral that sort of centered on the idea of "Children shouldn't have to see this" and "Pride should be a queer-friendly event that's very chill and sex is never mentioned ever." And, I mean, again, bad faith takes that are so ridiculous. And we went back and forth about even talking about this on this episode, because it feels so ridiculous. I'm sort of just like, this isn't a real thing, surely there's not that many people who actually believe this and want this, this feels like trolling to a large degree. But we did want to talk about it briefly just to say that we think this is ridiculous. And, come on now. These are bad faith takes, but we'll still just quickly kind of debunk them in case anyone is wondering.
Sally: Yeah.
Rachel: We support kink at Pride.
Sally: Yeah. And I think the thing that is, you know, even though they come from a place of quasi-trolling, the discourse, I do think that they're connected to a deeper fear and insecurity around people who are deviant being allowed to be deviant in public. And I think it's a very slippery slope, "I don't want my kids to see people wearing a collar and a leash," I don't mean to be reductive around what kink encompasses, but that truly is what people are saying they don't want to see at Pride.
Rachel: That's -- yeah, that's what we're talking about.
Sally: It's a slippery slope to be like, "That's deviant, that's not okay" to being like, "Queerness and transness and gender non-conformity are deviant behaviors."
Rachel: Yeah.
Sally: It comes from a place of, and this is the other reason why cops shouldn't be at Pride, it comes from a place of being policed, having our sexuality policed, having our genders policed and our gender expressions policed. And it's like, this is one of those moments where you want people who... I think there are queer people who do hold this position, but the conversation that was happening was a bunch of people who aren't queer but consider themselves allies having this conversation. And it's a moment where I just want allies to just be quiet and just not register an opinion because it just doesn't matter.
Rachel: It just doesn't matter what you think. And your comfort is not what Pride is about. So, you know, I think the thing that's killing me is this "but my children" argument, which is very rarely... I think if you've devolved into "but my children" I think that's a yellow light. You've got to yield a bit and make sure that you are really on the right side of history here. But I went to a Pride parade when I was three or four years old. I only realized it was a Pride parade years later. I remembered it as "I got to be in a parade when I was little." And then years later, I was like, I think there were, I have a memory of men in leather and chaps. And years later I was like, was that a gay Pride parade? And it was, but for years I just thought it was a parade because I was a child and didn't think anything of it. I didn't ascribe any meaning to men wearing leather chaps. That meant nothing to me. But the thing is, if you decide to take your kid to a Pride parade, fine, or a Pride event, fine, whatever, do that knowing that you don't necessarily know what you're going to get. And the point is to introduce your kids to all different kinds of people. But also if there's one thing that children understand it's costumes. So, if you're worried about, oh, what am I going to tell my kid if they see people doing puppy play with dog masks on. I'm like, you can tell your kid that they're dressed up, like puppies. You don't need to tell them anything more than that. They're just going to be like, okay. And they're going to move on. It's not that deep. And so this is such a pearl-clutching moral outrage that I just find so ridiculous. And the excuse of "but the children" is the least compelling argument that I've ever heard. I just don't buy it.
Sally: I agree. And I think, like you were alluding to, "but the children" is an argument that is always used to basically tell anyone who isn't straight and cis and gender conforming and white, that what they're doing isn't okay. And it may start out, as "I don't want to see kink at Pride" and then you have plausible deniability because you can be like, "No, no, I have no problem with queer people. It's just that it's really hard to explain kink to a kid." But it's never that.
Rachel: Never.
Sally: It's always about something else or it's going to be used to lead to something else. And I do think that we have to be really vigilant about our genders and sexualities being policed and regulated, particularly at fucking Pride.
Rachel: Right. I mean, if you want to bring your kid to Pride, there's a few reasons why that might be. My girlfriend and I were talking about this last night and she was saying, one is that you are queer and you want your kid to see Pride because that's a part of your identity and you want to introduce them to that. Fine. The second is that your kid is queer, either you know it or you suspect it, and so you want them to have the opportunity to know that you're okay with this, that you support this, to see other people like them. The third is that you don't know if your kid is queer or not, but you want to raise them with good values, you want them to have access to different types of people and be aware that queer people exist. Fine. You know, the third one is great, but if you are straight and you want your kid to have these values, first of all, then trying to police how queer people act is not the way to go about it. But second of all, there's other ways to do that. Pride was never for children. There are certainly family-friendly events. There are things that are for kids like drag queen reading hour at the library that you can take your kids to. If you're uncomfortable taking your kid to Pride, unpack that. But also, don't make it our problem. It's not that deep. You don't have to go. This isn't for you. And so the idea that people are trying to police something that is not for them or for their kids is just so ridiculous. And again I'm like, surely this is a small percentage of people because it's so ridiculous. But then again, allies have been known to do ridiculous things, so who's to say. But I think you can just leave your kid at home, or not go to Pride at all. And that's an okay thing to have happen.
Sally: I think also, it's important to note that if you're hearing this and you agree and you're, yeah, why would anyone police kink at Pride? That's ridiculous. But this conversation can be framed in a different way that makes it sound less dangerous than you and I are saying it is. So, you know, I could hear one of these people who's against kink at Pride being like, "You know, we just want it to be a safe space for everyone. We want families to feel welcome because love wins," or whatever the thing is. And I think people hear that and they're like, oh yeah, that does make sense. Pride should be a safe space. You know? And so I think it's important to know that sometimes when you hear these arguments and these justifications for why people want to make certain changes or whatever, you think about the way that they're being framed.
Rachel: Yeah. I think the safe space argument is another one that I've seen a bunch. And that's this idea of, you know, I have past trauma or something that makes me have a negative relationship with sex and that this can be really triggering. And, you know, there've been a lot of really articulate explanations of why that doesn't really apply here and sort of the ways in which we have to measure our own past trauma and balance that with the rights of other people to exist in public. But the one thing that keeps coming to mind for me is just: clothing isn't sex. Anything can be triggering. And that's sort of separate, but this idea that wearing a collar means you're getting off in public, those aren't the same thing. It's just clothing. And I'm sort of shocked by how much people are deploying this argument, because I'm just like, we talked about this in the context of dress codes and modesty and all these things where we can be like, "A girl wearing an outfit isn't the same as a girl having sex or wanting to have sex or trying to attract you." We know this. So then to turn around and say "Well, if you wear a leather harness in public, that's sex and I don't consent to it." No, you don't get to consent to what other people are wearing. You're not involved in that. There's no consent involved in that. That's not the same as a sex act. It's also not the same as somebody publicly masturbating, which is a sex act in public that you didn't consent to. Just wearing the clothes is not sex. And you don't really have a right to consent to that or not, it doesn't involve you.
Sally: Exactly. That's really well put. And it is also totally connected to queer people's sexuality being seen as dangerous and deviant and disgusting. And so that conflating something people are wearing with sex because the person wearing it is queer is a really dangerous thing that goes back to decency laws and why we have Pride in the first place.
Rachel: Exactly. And there's also kind of a TERFy underlying argument here, which is just, you know, a lot of this stuff around kink is being discussed in the context of people who have penises. And there's this idea that penises are violent, they're aggressive, they harm women and we must protect women at all costs. And the argument here is cis women is what these people who are arguing this intend with that, and this idea that seeing a bulge in public is violent and you have a right to not see a cis man in a g-string. I think be very wary of that sort of argument, because it's coming from people who are operating in really bad faith and who are actively perpetuating harm against trans people everyday. We really can't be taking talking points from people with that perspective.
Sally: Yeah, a hundred percent. And they try to sneak it in in different ways, but that's completely where it comes from. And it's gross, and we have to, like you said, not take talking points from it and also shut it down anywhere it shows up.
Rachel: Yeah. Sometimes we've got to talk about things we don't like, and this is one of those times.
Sally: Yeah.
Rachel: All right. So let's transition to the last big topic, which is allies.
Sally: Yeah. This segment can be called "The A in LGBTQIA does not stand for ally."
Rachel: Sally, do you want to talk about just a top-level backstory of how we got here?
Sally: Okay, so I'm in some Facebook groups for a hobby in which I partake. We had a little back and forth about how you talk about -- do you say you do a hobby, you partake in a hobby? I'm going to go with partake.
Rachel: Yeah.
Sally: And there was a schism around what queer spaces allies are allowed to be in and what spaces they're allowed to not just exist in, but also talk in and participate in and show up in. And it was not a good way to kick off Pride month or Pride season, because I basically encountered someone who has a business, that their logo is rainbow, they sell a lot of rainbow and Pride merch, and they identify as an ally. And they said that they thought the A in LGBTQIA was for ally. They got a pretty extensive education, thanks to a bunch of queer and trans people in this Facebook group. And one of the things, I didn't tell you this, Rachel, but one of the things this guy said as people were sort of -- and by the way, people were definitely calling him in as opposed to calling him out. It was a very gentle, you might want to rethink this. He was like, okay, I'm listening, help me be a better ally. Which is kind of illustrative of the problem. It's sort of like, oh, okay, I'm fucking up, I'm harming you, help me be better at not harming you. And that has kicked off a full week of conversations between, you know, you and me and your girlfriend. And then other conversations I've been having too about the way 'allies', quote-unquote, show up in queer spaces. And there's no better time to confront that complicated issue than during Pride season.
Rachel: The A isn't for ally, just so we can be clear.
Sally: Right.
Rachel: The A is for asexual, not ally.
Sally: Yeah. I mean, let's be clear about that.
Rachel: It's just not for ally. So.
Sally: I think we were also, you and I are both similarly aghast that people would assume the A was for ally. And I guess that it sort of depends on what your queer community is like, because I do think that there are queer communities who maybe do feel that way. But I don't think it's the default and you shouldn't assume that if you're an ally, you are a part of the community.
Rachel: Right. I think that there are plenty of spaces that say "allies welcome" but I think that everyone should assume that the A stands for asexual. And so if just the acronym is given, that is not about allies. And if people don't say "allies welcome," assume they're not, because people will usually say if that's clear. And also, this isn't the law. People can go wherever they want, they do go wherever they want. No one's saying it's against the law for an ally to join a Facebook group that has an A in it. You can do whatever you want. This is about what you should do and what is the right thing to do, not about what's legal or not, because I think some people kind of default to "you can't tell me what to do" and "who are you to say" and whatever. And this isn't about that. This is about etiquette and being thoughtful and being kind and not taking up space. So for me, we've been talking about this Sally, one of the questions is, as an ally, why do you want to be in this group? Whether it's a Facebook group or a slack room, what are you trying to get out of this? And I genuinely don't have the answer because before I was out or identifying as queer, I was just like, oh, cool. A room for people who are not me. And just didn't think anything of it. I never was like, oh man, I just wonder what they're talking about in there. I'm so desperate to know. And why am I not allowed to be in there? I was just like, okay. I don't know. There's plenty of things in this world that are not for me, and I don't think about them that much. And so the entitlement of desiring to be in there, I'm just like, what's going on with you that you want to be in there so badly, and you're mad that you're not? Because it's not like we're having some secret conversations that you're being left out. It's often very silly, nerdy, light-hearted kinds of stuff that you wouldn't be interested in anyway, because it doesn't apply to you. Or it's more serious stuff about family and trauma and difficulties. And you don't have anything to contribute to that because you haven't experienced it. So, what are you trying to do by being in these groups, is my question.
Sally: Right.
Rachel: What are you, it feels less about you wanting to get something out of these groups and more about you wanting to pat yourself on the back for being welcome in these groups, is how it often feels to me.
Sally: Yeah. That's exactly right. I have the same question about, why do you want to be in this space, especially if you consider yourself an ally, which by the way, I don't think anyone should ever self-describe as an ally, I feel that's a thing that people can ascribe to you. But when someone says "I'm an ally," I'm so suspicious of that, because it's like, how did you come by that term and why?
Rachel: Right.
Sally: But, you know, it would be really cool as an ally for you to start your own group of allies to talk about how you can bring about queer liberation and how you can be in solidarity with queer people. Because I personally, in groups, whether it's around processing inventing, whether it's a group for a hobby or it's a group for political movement building or whatever, there are some places where you shouldn't ever have to hear the voice of the other people who are not marginalized in the same way you are. So I personally, after this whole schism on Facebook, I started a new group that allies just aren't allowed in. And of course I can't, you know, I guess people could lie and get into it. I just, I don't know why they would.
Rachel: [Laughs] I'm sorry, but, if you're lying about being queer, I'm just like, well then you're queer. I don't know what else to say.
Sally: [Laughs] Right, exactly.
Rachel: You know what I mean? I can't tell you whether you are. If you tell me you are, I'm just going to assume you are. But also if you feel the need to, to your mind, lie about that, then... again, unpack that. That's a really strange choice to make.
Sally: Yeah. And this reminds me also of working at a company where there was merch for Pride, rainbow merch. And it was like, "All right, our merch is ready, come get in line and we'll pass it out." And people who didn't identify as queer or trans getting in line to get their rainbow t-shirts first. And you know, this isn't about, I can never know what's in people's hearts.
Rachel: Sure.
Sally: Maybe there were people who weren't out or whatever, but, you know, these were people who identified not as queer snagging the merch. And it's kind of the same thing with seeing people in these groups on Facebook talk about how they're allies and then also kind of brag about the way in which they're allies because they want cookies. And, you know, that might make some queer people feel good and loved and affirmed, but it doesn't make all of us feel good and loved and affirmed. It makes some of us feel like our space is being invaded. And I also don't having to do, you know, the stuff I was seeing in these Facebook groups was queer people spending a lot of time and energy to explain to this one dude who has the rainbow logo and stuff in-depth why it wasn't cool to do what he was doing. And it's like, I don't think it's fair to have a bunch of people from the marginalized community educate you. Particularly when you could do a lot of that education for yourself.
Rachel: Yeah. And you could also ask this question in just a general group, because there will be queer people in that group, there will be other allies in that group, there will be people there with a developed understanding and analysis who can chime in and help you. You don't need to go to the queer-specific space to get your question answered. Just stop and think about it for a second. Do I need to go there for this, or is this something that can be-- I understand people, I noticed that a few years ago when I was working on my book, there were journaling groups for all different types of people. It would be nurses or whoever. And I noticed there was a queer and trans group and I was, cool, that's nice, and didn't think much of it beyond that. Because the thing was, if you had a question that was, you know, "My nephew just came out and I think he could really benefit from a journal. Does anyone have recommendations for cool spreads?" You could just ask that in the main group.
Sally: Right.
Rachel: And there would be people who would join in and people would go in the other group and crosspost, and other people would probably come back and chime in. But you don't have to go to this specific space to ask that question, if that's what you're seeking is help and understanding, there's other ways to get that without going into a space that's not really meant for you. This is supposed to be a safe space for us to just be ourselves and not have to explain ourselves and get to exist, not be doing the job of education. There's plenty of queer people also who are fine to do that education, and don't mind whether that's in a group just for queer and trans people or not. But I think it's good to assume that the default is that people don't really want to educate you. Particularly people who don't know you. It's very different if you've got a close relationship with somebody and you can ask your friend, what do you think about this? Is this cool? But that's really rooted in a relationship that is pre-existing and that has other facets of it. That's not just you having, you know, I take all my gay questions to you.
Sally: [Laughs] Totally. Yeah. And I think it's important that any group of people that wants to be in solidarity with a group that is marginalized in a way that they're not, I think that those people need to have their own spaces. And if you're an ally to queer people, or you want to be, you need to have your own little consciousness raising group, your political education group, you need to get together with people who are like you and figure out what you can do to help queer liberation. And that does not mean every community has to always be separate forever. I just mean that it's not always about being like, "I'm an ally. So I go into every space to show that I'm an ally." It's go into some spaces, talk to your people. That's the other thing, is allies showing up in this really extra way. It's like, why don't you just go to your own space and show up however you want and work your shit out. And I think that goes for, you know, white people who care about racism and anti-blackness, I think that goes for cis people and straight people who care about queer issues and trans issues. It's like, you know, you don't need to organize us. you need to organize your people.
Rachel: [Laughs] Right.
Sally: Our problem isn't other people, it's being oppressed by, you know, heteronormativity and cisnormativity. Your allyship can go much further in other spaces.
Rachel: Right. Don't come to us and ask us how to talk to your shitty husband about this stuff. I don't know, talk to other people with shitty husbands.
Sally: Right.
Rachel: You know, talk to your shitty husband yourself. You can figure it out. Don't ask us how to do it. It's frustrating, the amount of work that people are willing to ask marginalized people to do under the guise of allyship and this sort of guilt tripping and getting really defensive if queer people say "We don't want to do that." If that's what happens, I don't know, take it for what it's worth and leave. Don't get into an argument about it. Don't defend your right to be in this space. It's just, now you're just making a mess of things. You're making it so much worse.
Sally: Yeah. Learn something and keep it moving.
Rachel: I also just think that ultimately being an ally is a show don't tell moment. The people who I think of as allies are not the ones who are going out of their way to proclaim it. It's the ones who are just doing this in small ways all the time, who are inclusive, who are thoughtful, who don't say, I don't know, transphobic or homophobic things, who don't defend the rights of cops. Just the people who are in everyday life showing their allyship. And, yeah, sometimes it can be about being more vocal, and sometimes we need you to be more vocal. But that alone isn't going to cut it, and we pay attention to this stuff. We notice this, we notice the absence of it. And if you're seeking that cookie, that's the wrong way to go about it. Don't do this for props or for other people to notice it, just do it because you believe it needs to be done.
Sally: Yeah. And do it because you've done the work, you've asked yourself, "What does it look like to be a good ally? How can I make change in a way that would benefit people who are marginalized?" And do that thing. Don't just call yourself an ally because you don't discriminate against queer people, or you're cool with people being queer. That's not, we're past that. That's very bare minimum. And I don't think this just goes for straight allies or cis allies, I think this goes for anyone who considers themselves part of the solution versus part of the problem. It's like, what would it look for you to be an accomplice to another community's liberation? Those are the things you need to be doing.
Rachel: Mm-hmm.
Sally: Whew.
Rachel: [Laughs] That's it. I don't know what else to say. Yeah. That pretty much sums it up.
Sally: Yeah. I feel like that's kind of it.
Rachel: Well, we've got a lot of doc left that we're not going to get to today unfortunately, so I think we're going to do a second Pride episode that is about queer art and queer joy. And I was going to say more fun, but honestly, I had fun doing this.
Sally: I did too.
Rachel: I think this was great. So the next one will be about the queer art that we're consuming and the ways that we are just celebrating Pride all the time, year round. So look forward to that. And the A is not for ally. [Laughs]
Sally: And actually, speaking of queer things that bring us joy. If you are a listener who identifies as LGBTQIA please email us at ohilikethatpod@gmail.com and tell us your favorite things, whether it's a piece of art or a movie or a book, a poem, whatever. Your favorite queer stuff. And we'll read some of those on the air.
Rachel: Poems, very gay. Send us your poems. Also playlists, brands, queer-owned brands that you love to shop from. Anything. We'd love to put together some listener recs to share in this next episode, and also to watch and take part in all of the things that you are suggesting.
Sally: Hell yeah. On that note, I think it's time for a nice thing to end on. Rachel, what is your nice thing to end on?
Rachel: Okay, my nice thing to end on is I got a mask chain, because I have started taking my mask off sometimes when I'm outside. So, big moment. And yeah, sometimes I wear it through my building to take Chuck outside and then I get outside and I take it off for one reason or another. And I was like, okay, I think it's time to get a mask chain. So my coworker Katie Way recommended one from Etsy, and everyone on my team bought one immediately, and it came, it's been great. I love it. So it was $8, and it's very cute. So we've entered a new phase where mask chains make sense, and I'm excited about that.
Sally: I love that. I need one so bad. I was walking around yesterday in Center City here in Philly. And it was like, there were long stretches where there was no one around, and it was really hot, but it was a KN95 mask, and so wearing it under your chin just doesn't really work.
Rachel: Right.
Sally: But then carrying it was kind of annoying, so I was just wearing it. And I was like, I need a mask chain, but it's like, you have to figure out which one to get. So anyway, the point is thank you because I'm definitely going to get myself one.
Rachel: Nice.
Sally: And match you and your coworkers.
Rachel: All right, Sally, what's your nice thing to end on?
Sally: My nice thing to end on is this app called Picture This, which is essentially Shazam for plants and flowers.
Rachel: Oooh!
Sally: Which to me is kind of like, we're in the 22nd century if this kind of thing is possible. I do think that you have to pay for it, although I think there's probably some features you can get in the free version, but basically what you do is you just aim your phone's camera at a plant or a flower and you take a picture and it tells you what it is. And then it'll also give you a bunch of information about it and care tips and stuff like that. And it's never failed me.
Rachel: Nice.
Sally: It works amazingly. I sort of thought it was going to be one of those things that seems really cool but actually it doesn't work, but it's really fun, especially in the spring to just walk around the neighborhood and be like, oh, what's that? And you know, Shazam a cool plant or flower and learn about it and learn about what it's called because plants, their common names and flowers have funny, weird, goofy names. And it's just kind of a fun thing to have. So yeah, it's called Picture This, which I don't think is a good name for this app.
Rachel: No, I thought this was going to be like a picture editing app. I'm really surprised by what it is, actually.
Sally: I think it should just be called Plant Shazam or something. Plant ID.
Rachel: Plantzam.
Sally: Yeah.
Rachel: I'm excited about this, because I've long wanted this and I have always been like, none of these will work. This can't possibly work. So I'm excited to hear that there's actually one that does work. I have a book that's trees of New York City that is, you know, sort of pocket sized. You can take it around with you and then identify the trees around you, which I-- Sally, I don't know if you'll agree with this. I feel like identifying plants and flowers is gay. Canonically, spiritually.
Sally: Canonically.
Rachel: That's a gay thing to do. And so I think this is a great, nice thing to end on for our gay episode.
Sally: For our Pride ep. Yeah. Look, if you're identifying flowers, you're instantly an ally and I take back everything I said. You're actually instantly queer.
Rachel: Yeah. The question to join the group should just be like, have you ever identified a plant or flower in the wild just because you simply wanted to know? That's the purity test we're looking for here.
Sally: Yeah. And then you can march with us.
Rachel: [Laughs]
Sally: Okay, great. Well, thank you for listening, everyone, to this episode of Oh I Like That. Please rate us and review us on iTunes if you haven't done so already.
Rachel: Also follow us on Twitter @ohilikethatpod, email us at ohilikethatpod@gmail.com, and you can follow the two of us. I'm @the_rewm and Sally is @sallyt.
Sally: Oh I Like That is produced by Rachel and Sally and edited by Lucas. Amber Seger, who is @rocketorca on social media, designed our logo.